TruthOut - Town Meeting
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Supporting the Troops

By WilliamPitt

Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 05:15:15 PM EDT :: Iraq

It began with the funeral of Army Specialist Edward Lee Myers, who was killed in Iraq on July 27, 2005. His funeral was scheduled for August 5th, in St. Joseph, Missouri. Word got out that Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church intended to stage a protest demonstration at the funeral. Phelps and his group believe that America is doomed because of its tolerance for homosexuals, and sees the deaths of American soldiers in Iraq as divine judgment. They began showing up at soldier's funerals to broadcast this message.

D.C. "Big Dog" Hannah and his fellow veterans would have none of it. "The Missouri chapter of Combat Veterans Motorcycle Association," said Hannah in an interview, "established a plan to attend the funeral to shield Eddie's family from the protesters. CVMA contacted other groups; notably the VFW, American Legion and American Legion Riders (ALR), Leathernecks Motorcycle Club - made of current and former Marines - and the Vietnam Veterans Motorcycle Club. On the day of the funeral, eight protesters stood in a ditch across the road from the church parking lot, waving signs and screaming obscenities. Among their group were four children, wearing t-shirts with obscene phrases. 20 bikers and 15 other veterans stood between them and the church. When the Phelpses chanted, the bikers drowned them out."

I have prepared an essay describing the formulation of this group, the Patriot Riders, and their efforts to stand up for American veterans. Read it over and let me know what you think.


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During the Viet Nam War I worked stateside with Army Docs who were repairing our injured soldiers. There were few embarassing demonstrations, ... fewer directed toward the dead. Some a_ holes never quite understood that the dead are beyond our concern, and the world's menace. They must be laughing at these boneheads.

The Phelps bunch should be put to rest forever. They are sick and twisted Kansan RRR's who never got any part of Christ's message. I am embarassed to even acknowledge they say they like Christ. They seem to me to be the sickest batch of Christian wannabe's I have ever seen or heard of. Love to be a fly on their bedroom wall to see the sort of sick crap they do at play time.

'Nuf said. A good group of Veteran Bikers can talk sense into almost anyone.

Hey Rev Phelps, ... Take your maniac daughter home and do what you like behind closed doors, ... but don't pretend to speak for God. He's gonna hand you the longest timeout in history for your bu _ _ s _ t.

I lived in Kansas, ... and loved the view of the Universe I had from there. So tell me, ... fool, ... How'd you figure you could hide in the midst of the prairie?

The sons and daughters of the Republic might ride bikes, ... and they might write right here. But most of all they will not stand by while fools ridicule and abuse the right of a family to lay their loved one to rest.

No Federal law needed. Just a few strong body guards by the side of the road who want to preserve the right to speak freely in family solitude at a soldier's graveside.

Thanks, gentlemen and ladies. Leave us a maildrop where we can drop you some expense money. Carry our prayers on your shoulders.

SG51
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. - George Orwell -
by Stargazer51 (Stargazer51@comcast.net) on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 09:22:13 PM EDT http://TheIndependenceParty.blogspot.com/

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WRP -- I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments.  However, my son, a Marine who will be deployed to Iraq in February has been told that his income during his deployment will not be taxed. Is your statement that tax relief hasn't trickled down to the troops inaccurate?  Or is he mistaken?  

by emmasdaughter on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 09:28:36 PM EDT
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...for your beautifully written and incredibly moving essay, and thanks for calling our attention to the Patriot Riders. What a wonderful thing they are doing! I hope your essay is read by many, many people across this country; it's an important message.
Thank you Riders, for having the guts to stand up for what's right.

by Ghilliad on Thu Aug 24th, 2006 at 09:36:41 PM EDT http://www.myspace.com/ghilliad
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And bring it along to debates, townhall meetings or when I meet with them.  I so appreciate you writing it.  This trillion dollar war has created thousands of widows and orphans and the Republicans call caring for them "too expensive."

If you haven't seen read:
70's Law Costs 61,000 Military Widows Thousands Of Dollars In Survivor Benefits

By Lizette Alvarez
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/19/washington/19widow.html?ex=1313640000&en=a3de047001552ec2& ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Excerpt:
As many as 61,000 military widows whose husbands died of causes relating to their military service lose out on thousands of dollars a year in survivor benefits because of a law that dates from the 1970's.

Widows and retirees have spent decades trying to persuade Congress to change the law, which hits hardest at the widows of lower-ranking service members and is referred to by many critics as the "widow's tax.''

The Senate passed such a change last year and again this year as part of the military authorization bill. But House Republican leaders oppose the change because of its steep price tag, nearly $9 billion over 10 years, Senate legislative aides from both parties say.

Senator Bill Nelson, Democrat of Florida summed it up when he said, "Widows and orphans are made as a result of war.  They are victims of war. They are giving the ultimate sacrifice, and the nation has an obligation to care for them."

I'm not an optimist or a pessimist. Its my responsibility to try and make things better. Nihilism sucks. - me
by Ian Colte on Fri Aug 25th, 2006 at 03:12:58 AM EDT

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Bush and gang really don't give a rat's ass about our military. They are more concerned about Bush looking good in front of military audiences. It is refreshing to read about a group of people that really do care, and who translate words into actions.
Our working class, professional military is cannon fodder in the NeoCon grand scheme. Even now, when the military is stretched to the breaking point, NeoCon traitors are drumming up another war. As Sen. Hagel said prior to the invasion of Iraq, let the Neo's ride into the battle on the first tanks. Then we'll see how devoted they are to the cause.

"A slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts.": Euripides
by jbyopa (shaking.the.trees@hotmail.com) on Fri Aug 25th, 2006 at 08:11:23 AM EDT
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Bush and the republicans have practically ruined their political careers just to do what they think is right...trust me...they care about the military. This war makes Bush look really bad, but he keeps going, because he cares about America more than his reputation. Conspiracy theories and the like have no place in serious debate. The "new" war you speak of is no such thing. The war on terror is all the same. Borders mean almost nothing. Of course you don't agree, but you're wrong.

War never solved anything except for communism, slavery, fascism, and nazism. Coming soon: Islamic Extremism!

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Sun Aug 27th, 2006 at 05:54:04 PM EDT
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Ruined their political careers? "Conspiracy theories and the like have no place in serious debate."
Excuse me, but who just the hell are you to tell me what I can throw into the debate?
No one, and I mean no one, can tell me or any other American what to think. The problem with you and your buddies in the Administration is that you fear honest, open debate. You have elected a fucking moron to the Presidency, and now you are trying to quell the revolt of the people by telling us what we can and cannot debate? I don't think so.
 The War on Terror is a fraud. There are people who would attack the USA, and of that I have no doubt. But the military is the wrong tool to use in rounding up international criminals. The hundreds of billions of $$$ sunk into the Iraq quagmire, and the lives lost, are wasted. We are producing more enemies every day, with our policy of bomb first, ask later.
This is a dangerous world, and navigating the shoals requires leadership, intelligence, and patience, all three traits missing in the Bush White House.
"A slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts.": Euripides
by jbyopa (shaking.the.trees@hotmail.com) on Sun Aug 27th, 2006 at 06:51:20 PM EDT
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fucking moron to the Presidency
this is the logical fallacy of Ad Hominem...attack of the person. Stop disrespecting your president. To do so undermines the legitimacy of our democracy. The majority re-elected him, that is our democracy. Yes, in serious political debate I can tell you what not to use...theories you cannot use. You may think what you want, but you cannot in open debate...say what theories you would like to be true that you cannot prove are true. You say you want political debate, then you MUST bring facts...not what you "think" happened behind closed doors. So worried about your freedom of speech that it clouds your response.

You think the people are always revolting against republican leaders...that is very comfortable for you to think. 5 of the last 7 presidents were Republicans. The people have spoken. They will speak again. Don't worry.  
Oh, and your anger shows me how little ground you have to stand on. Don't get so angry, we all love America, or we wouldn't be wasting our time trying to fight each other about what party will do the best for her.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 01:28:20 AM EDT
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Say your Pledge of Allegiance.  Seems they need to tighten up your Political Science Department if they teach you that this is, or has ever been, a democracy.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

But it's not even a republic -- it's clearly an oligarchy.
"ol·i·gar·chy  (l-gärk)
Government by a few, especially by a small faction of persons or families."

Right back atcha ... "You say you want political debate, then you MUST bring facts...not what you 'think' happened ..."  You know less about what is going on than you think you do.  We've had better debaters than you come in here with the same old spin.  Spin, spin, spin.   Why don't you "respect the president" people ever come here and read something??  There are links and links and links provided to help you open up your minds.

"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:23:57 AM EDT
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I know how much you hate the President, you have made that clear.  But Oligarchy?  We have had the same representative republic in place for 200 years.  There are still 3 branches of government.  We elect 435 members to the HR every two years, we have 100 Senators, and we have our state and local government.  If you think we are clearly living in an oligarchy, clearly you have never actually seen one.  Try visiting Cuba, Venezula, Iran, Syria, North Korea, or any other real Oligarchy.  Then hold up an anti-government sign on the side of the road.  See what happens to people in those countries that disagree with their leaders.

Semper Fi Shakell!!

by paidhack on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:29:26 AM EDT
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Appreciate some serious information in here.
Thanks alot.
Semper Fi...

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:18:35 PM EDT
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You two fellas are simply too precious.

Here's some more Serious Information to add to your repertoire - Venezuela is not a dictatorship but a republic.  Their leader is twice-elected president Hugo Chavez.  (Hmmm...  Twice elected---just like George Bush.)  When his second term expires he cannot serve again.  

Venezuela is not a police state.  I visited friends there under Chavez' first term and there was no sign of lost freedoms, intimidation or fear of speaking out.  No thugs with guns on the street corners, no religious repression.  Just shopping malls and universities and lovely countryside, lively music and dancing, great food and nice people.  Members of the opposition movement (allied to big oil interests and the CIA) are free to speak and demonstrate against Chavez.  It is our neocon-allied media who falsely paint Chavez as autocratic and brutal, although he has killed no one and (unlike Bush) has adhered to his country's constitution and laws.  Today Venezuela, which abolished the death penalty in 1863, is experiencing an economic boom due to increasing oil prices, and Chavez is directing the increased revenue to reducing economic inequality, rather than lining his own pockets.  Compare all that with the Saudi royal family, and ask yourself why our government relentlessly rags on Chavez---and why you so willingly shill for that tripe.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 12:20:59 PM EDT
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Where did Venezuela come from? Like I care. Yeah there's a connection because Chavez is the good guy, and America is the greedy big bad wolf.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 01:56:56 PM EDT
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You enthusiastically thanked paidhack for his "serious information".  Naturally I assumed that meant you had read it.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 11:11:02 PM EDT
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What did you think that it meant?

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 12:17:25 AM EDT
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he referred to Venezuela.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 12:32:12 AM EDT
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you would see I don't care going of on that tangent.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 12:41:05 AM EDT
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Check out this link:
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR530131997?open&of=ENG-VEN

It's those neocons over at Amnesty International who falsely paint Chavez as autocratic and brutal.

I didn't call Venezuela a dictatorship, I called it an Oligarchy.  Before you try to argue, get your facts straight.  It is so much easier if you keep up with the discussion.

by paidhack on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 12:10:41 PM EDT
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---but um, that Amnesty report is dated 1997---two years before Chavez took office.  (Before you try to argue, get your facts straight.)

When you called those governments oligarchies, you implied authoritarian rule, like a dictatorship.  If you really just meant "rule by the elite few", there are many, many countries which would qualify---and it's debatable whether Venezuela as it currently stands would belong on that list.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 04:27:55 PM EDT
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I neglected to look at the date of the Amnesty report.  I apoligize.  
In regards to the Oligarchy statement, I was merely stating that there are many other countries that far better fit the term than the US.  All Marxist and Communist countries fall into this catergory eventually because of the human spirit.  People naturally want to improve their own conditions, and Communism doesn't allow for that (unless you are in charge).  Therefore, the powers that be must stifle any dissenters in their midst.  
America is not perfect, but we as Americans have the right to dissent.  We have the privledge of voting for our representatives and senators and local leaders as well as the president.  I think that is further from an Oligarchy than any of the countries that I mentioned.

by paidhack on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 08:19:51 AM EDT
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Some see that it is now a world-wide Oligarchy (run by a small faction), with nationalism being an out-dated (but immensely useful) concept.  But I know you can't get your mind around that, so no links.
"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 09:07:30 AM EDT
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Just because some people see the world in a twisted way, does not make it true.  No links to other people's opinions?  My brainwashed, kool-aid drinking mind understands that you have no factual evidence of a world-wide Oligarchy.

by paidhack on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 10:21:13 AM EDT
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"Noun
1. hack - one who works hard at boring tasks."

"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 10:36:28 AM EDT
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Attacking my name is so typical.  Have I made any spelling errors that you wish to point out as well?  How about insulting my parents while you are at it.  Below I have listed the typical debate tactics of many people here:

  1. SHOW UP WITH YOUR TALKING POINTS. Make sure you have something that you feel will show your opponents in a negative light, and make that the subject of the discussion.

  2. DEMONIZE YOUR OPPONENT. Attempt to cover them with shame, the same way you would a 4 year old that touches his pee-pee.

  3. IF YOU SEE SOMEONE DOING #2 ABOVE, SUPPORT HIM IMMEDIATELY.

  4. ACCUSE YOU OPPONENT OF SAYING SOMETHING HE DIDN'T. Attempt to define his statements in a negative light. Interpret them this way and state it as fact that he did actually say it. NEVER ask him...always TELL him what his meaning was.

  5. CLAIM THAT IT IS "OLD NEWS" AND NOT WORTHY OF DISCUSSION. This applies especially when the discussion turns to the misdeeds of Democrat Party Leadership.

  6. QUOTE AN UNSOURCED NEW ARTICLE. Always quote the article selectively, or describe it in a general manner.

  7. IF ASKED DIRECT QUESTIONS ABOUT THE NEWS YOU HAVE PROVIDED, RESPOND INDIRECTLY. Never actually answer the specific of the question.

  8. IF ASKED TO SOURCE YOUR NEWS ARTICLE, IGNORE THE QUESTION.

  9. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF A MENTAL DEFECT OR LACK OF INTELLIGENCE. Personal attacks of this sort are especially useful as the target will almost always try to defend himself, thus changing the subject.

  10. IF THE PARTY LEADERSHIP IS ATTACKED, ATTEMPT TO TURN THE TABLES BY INFERRING THAT SOMEONE IN YOUR OPPONENTS PARTY IS JUST AS BAD.

  11. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF NOT ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS. Try to do this before he has an opportunity to. Try to infer that it you have given him multiple opportunities to do so. Do it even if the question has been answered. If he misses the question and asks you to repeat it DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES REPEAT THE QUESTION FOR HIS BENEFIT).

  12. RESORT TO INSULTS. Try to question you opponent's masculinity, his resolve, ANYTHING, but try to diminish and demean him. (This is know as the "LBJ Rule" codified by him thus: "Accuse your opponent of being a pig fornicator, then make him deny it.) REMEMBER, IF YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO THIS TACTIC, IT MEANS YOUR OPPONENT IS WINNING!

  13. ACCUSE YOUR OPPONENT OF BEING UNINFORMED. This works especially well when you are asked to provide your sources. It is especially effective if you work in a reference to someone you have already demonized. Karl Rove is currently the Demon of Choice.

  14. SPEAK CRYPTICALLY. Try to make it difficult for people to divine your meaning

  15. CHANGE THE SUBJECT. Try to get it back to your original talking points (see #1 above)

  16. APPEAR TO AGREE. You will need to do this in order to achieve #15.

  17. CLAIM YOUR OPPONENT IS BEING UNREASONABLE OR WON'T LISTEN TO REASON, AND LEAVE IN A HUFF.

  18. BAIT YOUR OPPONENT. Needle him, tease him, call him names until he makes an inappropriate post, then scream bloody murder to the Moderator.

  19. DENY THE EVIDENCE EXISTS. Ask for evidence of wrongdoing by those you support. When that evidence is presented, continue denying that it exists.

If the above does not work, notify pascal and have the offender barred from posting.


by paidhack on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 11:58:18 AM EDT
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This is an impressive-sounding list you've posted for us hack, and I can only assume it's copied straight from every psy ops agent's Official Packet.  I guess y'all take workshops in this kind of thing.  (The term "old news" especially gives you away---that's a favorite in the neocons' playbook.)  Do you realize how contemptible that makes you and Shakell?  It's not enough to be an activist for a cause just because you believe in it, and to speak the truth that's in your heart for the good of your country and your fellow man.  No, in your case you spout somebody else's talking points and play their mind games because you wanted a tactical advantage and weren't bright enough to come up with your own.  For you it's not a cause of the heart, it's a job.  If you weren't being paid for this you'd be as far from civic duty or political activism as you could get.

As for talking points, we actually write our own material rather than relying on strategists who've already done the thinking for us.  We are scrupulous about citing our sources, unlike Shakell, but you left items #6-8 in your list anyway even though they don't apply.  That shows you're making this argument by rote---you had a list and you wanted to use it.  You didn't write that list yourself.  #10 also is irrelevant, since there has been little or no reference to party leadership here, and if there were, we would quickly inform you of our contempt for the Dems.  So again, you didn't write that list.

Speaking cryptically, baiting your opponent, denying evidence exists---all of these are tactics you and Shakell have used.  You reveal too much of who you are.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 02:07:58 PM EDT
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Sandy, lets see which of these tactics you used in this post:
#1.  You showed up with your talking points...good.
#2.  Demonize your opponent:  "...weren't bright enough to come up with your own."
#3.  Jumping to Irie's defense is equivical to supporting him demonizing me.
#4.  I did not claim to write this.  I found several places that had the same list, none of them were authored, hence I can't credit the author.  
#9.  
#12.  
#13.

You could qualify for a couple of others, but I am trying to be fair in grading your post.

As to your comments about #6-8, I left them in because this country has a two party system, and much as you may hate it, at the end of the day, you will vote for the dems rather than throwing away your vote on a meaningless third party.  

As far as being a "paid hack", no I'm afraid not.  I chose my name when I saw all of the conspiracy theorists here were convinced that Rove had sent his stormtroopers to Truthout to discredit Leopold.  I was trying to be ironic.  If you honestly believe that the only people that disagree with you are paid government psy-ops, I suggest the aluminum foil beanee.  

Enjoy your weekend.  I'm starting mine early.  Off to Vegas for a little debauchery.  

by paidhack on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:15:11 PM EDT
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One difference between you and me is, I don't have a list.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:31:13 PM EDT
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OMG, am I allowed to respond to you???  Actually, Hack, I have a lousy vocabulary and I am always posting definitions.  I would hardly call that one for "hack" a personal attack.  Your list is lousy too -- you guys do the exact same things, so quit pointing the finger.  You know damned well that you come here to stir things up, not for any kind of debate.  And you guys are all lame, you all sound the same.  At least come up with something new.
"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 07:43:28 PM EDT
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are the same person if you ask me.  
"For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead." Thomas Jefferson
by lizbitchwitch (saylinbackagin@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:40:08 AM EDT
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Cassandra
by Cassandra on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 11:08:16 AM EDT
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Cassandra
by Cassandra on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 12:25:32 PM EDT
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"For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead." Thomas Jefferson
by lizbitchwitch (saylinbackagin@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 03:32:41 PM EDT
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The Republican Talking Points Primer!  You could use that on any point and always get back to blaming Clinton!  We could come up with a new board game using these points...call it....STRATEGERY!
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
by Christine on Sat Sep 9th, 2006 at 10:59:03 AM EDT
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If you had any idea what you were talking about you would have mentioned Cuba before the revolution under Batista or Chile under Pinochet, or Russia today. Whatever faults are to be found in Cuba and Venesuela today they are definitely not oligarchies except to the extent that it hasn't been rooted ourt in Venesuela. You are futilely trying to co-opt the term and in doing so display your ignorance.
Peacedog
by Peacedog (louisrue@charter.net) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 10:23:06 AM EDT
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(Santiago, March 24, 2005) -- Amendments to Venezuela's Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public's ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today.

By broadening laws that punish disrespect for government authorities, the Venezuelan government has flouted international human rights principles that protect free expression," said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. "While countries across Latin America are moving to repeal such laws, Venezuela has enacted further restrictions on the press that will shield officials from public scrutiny."  

The amendments extend the scope of existing provisions that make it a criminal offense to insult or show disrespect for the president and other government authorities. Venezuela's measures run counter to a continent-wide trend to repeal such "disrespect" (or "desacato") laws. In recent years, Argentina, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Peru have already repealed such laws, and other countries like Chile and Panama are currently considering legislation that would do so.  

by paidhack on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 12:24:27 PM EDT
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it gives a more nuanced view of things.  For example, HRW's description of the statutory changes enacted by the National Assembly includes this:

"...[media] stations deemed to 'condone or incite' public disturbances or publish messages 'contrary to the security of the nation' are subject to heavy fines and can be ordered to suspend broadcasting for seventy-two hours; on a second offense they may forfeit their broadcasting license for up to five years."

Such a measure is surely not optimal for freedom of speech, but one must remember that this is a country which experienced a coup d'etat, sponsored by outside forces, just three years ago---and that those same forces are still angling for "regime change" (including assassination of the elected leader) and inciting violent demonstrations that include tire burning, rock throwing and molotov cocktails.  Sorry, but that isn't free speech.  It would be extraordinary if such a country did not take measures against blatant incitement by its media, which are owned by the opposition.  Notice there is no mention of imprisonment for that offense.

Regarding the "disrespect laws", it says the changes "increased penalties for disrespect, criminal defamation, and libel."  The Venezuelan Supreme Court last fall ruled that a case brought by the Attorney General against a newspaper for an editorial did not constitute "institutional insult" prohibited by law, but it did caution that the Venezuelan constitution prohibits "the use of freedom of information and opinion to destabilize democratic institutions"---a position which is not far off, I think, from where our own Supreme Court would stand these days---and we haven't suffered a coup d'etat recently.

Make no mistake, I am a strong supporter of free expression, and Human Rights Watch is a good organization whose advice should be heeded.  But what they are doing with their report is holding each nation to a high standard and urging it to be better than it is.  Venezuela had a long history of police brutality, unequal distribution of wealth, and human rights violations before Chavez ever came on the scene.  It's hard to change those institutional problems, especially when the wealthy and powerful are fighting you tooth and claw the whole way.  The mayor of Caracas (the capital city) is a Chavez opponent who has facilitated the violent clashes between factions and presided over some of the atrocities.  

Chavez isn't Gandhi, and he isn't Mandela, but he's no Pinochet either.  (THAT'S why we want him out!)  I urge TO readers to read the whole HRW report if they want a fuller picture of Venezuela.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 08:14:40 PM EDT
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Where can i find it, Cass?
Peacedog
by Peacedog (louisrue@charter.net) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:43:18 PM EDT
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You learn the most interesting things when you start checking.

I take back everything I said about Human Rights Watch being a good group.  Looks like I should have said they used to be a good group.  Something has gone seriously wrong with HRW, and probably our perception management forces are behind it.

Read what Joe Emersberger of Znet has to say about HRW's recent performance:
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10011

Now here's that HRW report on Venezuela I quoted from earlier:
http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/home/opendoc.htm?tbl=RSDCOI&page=research&id=43cfae99 4

I'm going to spread the word to everyone I know that HRW isn't what we thought it was.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 06:24:10 PM EDT
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Thanks, looking forward to reading both.
Peacedog
by Peacedog (louisrue@charter.net) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 12:23:30 PM EDT
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You need to take your own advice, paidhack. Merriam-Webster Main Entry: ol·i·gar·chy  
Pronunciation: 'ä-l&-"gär-kE, 'O-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -chies
1 : government by the few
2 : a government in which a small group exercises control especially for corrupt and selfish purposes; also : a group exercising such control
3 : an organization under oligarchic control. This type of government is typified by a society in which a relatively small group of wealthy people control the government. Pretty much what we have here after 26 years of Republican and Republican Lite (Clinton) rule. Of coarse the classic examples are as I stated Chile under Pinochet, Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union and and Cuba under Batista and of coarse nicaragua under Samosa, Phillipines under Marcos.
I stand by this statement. Whatever one may say of Venesuala today in terms of authoritatianism it is actually moving away from oligarchy since the poor are the primary benificiaries of the Bolivarian Revolurion. The poor are never the beneficiaries under oligarchy. It is government of,bay and for the rich. You clearly dont know what you are writing about.
Peacedog
by Peacedog (louisrue@charter.net) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:37:27 PM EDT
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sorry about the typos
didn't review before posting
Peacedog
by Peacedog (louisrue@charter.net) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:40:02 PM EDT
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from Britannica Online

government by the few, especially despotic power exercised by a small and privileged group for corrupt or selfish purposes.

Aristotle used the term oligarchia to designate the rule of the few when it was exercised not by the best but by bad men unjustly. In this sense, oligarchy is a debased form of aristocracy, which denotes government by the few in which power is vested in the best individuals. Most classic oligarchies have resulted when governing elites were recruited exclusively from a ruling caste--a hereditary social grouping that is set apart from the rest of society by religion, kinship, economic status, prestige, or even language. Such elites tend to exercise power in the interests of their own class.

It is a recurrent idea that all forms of government are in the final analysis reducible to the rule of a few. Oligarchs will secure effective control whether the formal authority is vested in the people, a monarch, the proletariat, or a dictator. Thus, Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels insisted that, throughout capitalism, the key capitalists had controlled the government; they coined the dictum, "the state is the executive committee of the exploiting class." The Italian political scientist Gaetano Mosca likewise insisted that a "ruling class" always constituted the effective oligarchic control. Vilfredo Pareto elaborated the idea in his doctrine of the "elite." The modern tendency to analyze social patterns in terms of an "elite," although greatly reinforced by Pareto's theory, goes further back than Marx and Engels, who employed the term "elite" to describe the class-conscious communists, the leading group within the proletariat.

One of the most famous modern uses of the term occurs in "iron law of oligarchy," a concept devised by the German sociologist Robert Michels to refer to the alleged inevitable tendency of political parties and trade unions to become bureaucratized, centralized, and conservative. His reasoning was that, no matter how egalitarian or even radical the original ideology and goals of a party or union may be, there must emerge a limited group of leaders at the centre who can direct power efficiently, get things done through an administrative staff, and evolve some kind of rigorous order and ideology to ensure the survival of the organization when faced by internal division and external opposition. Subsequent writers of various persuasions have attempted either to expand on Michel's thesis, extending it to legislatures, religious orders, and other organizations, or to restrict or criticize the thesis, charging that the iron law of oligarchy is not universal and that some unions and parties do maintain a viable system of democratic expression and governance.

Political science and sociology are beginning to differentiate more carefully between various types of control and power. The type of power held by a democratic party boss, while overwhelming in relation to any single member of the party, is very different from that wielded by the boss of the single party in a totalitarian and authoritarian pattern. Likewise, the control group within an organization does not occupy the same position under democratic conditions (which provide for the group's being effectively challenged by outsiders at any time) as it does under an authoritarian plan. If effective control changes hands as rapidly as it does in a city of the United States or a British trade union, it is doubtful that those exercising it should be spoken of as a "class" or an "elite." The expression "the few" is too abstract to convey much information. Like the other purely numerical concepts of government inherited from Greek philosophy, oligarchy is an outmoded term, because it fails to direct attention to the substantive features of a government

Peacedog
by Peacedog (louisrue@charter.net) on Thu Aug 31st, 2006 at 03:50:36 PM EDT
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Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear. Spin huh? You read the stuff on the internet and believe it is golden...and then you criticize my formal college education. Yeah, not gonna work in a court of law...might work in a blog, but not in a serious society. You are right, it is a republic...that is correct. I use democracy simply as the layman term most often abused in common tongue. Trust me, you are not more well informed because you read independent internet news sources...no matter what the supposed credentials of the authors. WE have anti war activists all over the place on these pathetic websites and then we find out they never even went to war and were kicked out of boot camp. You got different numbers for the national debt on three different websites. Yeah we both think we have reality down...but trust me, thinking that because something isn't as public as CNN doesn't mean that they have the inside "scoop"..or the truth.

Oh and logical fallacies...ONCE AGAIN...Logic.
"We've had better debaters than you come in here with the same old spin"

This is the logical fallacy of Ad Baculum...basically threatening me that I am less worthy than I really am because others have "come in here" (asserting that it is your territory, which it is not) and done better than me. Logical fallacy...next!

And refer to my friends post to your oligarchy comment. These assertions of yours are so far beyond a serious sphere of debate. How can I debate someone who is just going to write me back and say that monkeys are in the white house powering nuclear reactors to create a mind control device that only aluminum beanies can save us from.

You know you can buy a time machine on the internet for 300 bucks right... :)


by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:16:41 PM EDT
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have had life experiences which have taught us things -- real knowledge.  If it is contrary to what is taught in main-stream sources, then one reaches ones own conclusions.  I can not ignore things that I have lived.

There are nuts everywhere.  On both sides of the fence.  But we have some good people here with a passion for real history, not made-up history, and we get a lot of our information from OLD books that have not been re-written, and various other sources.  Not everything on the internet is crap -- but each of us has to discern what's what.

Some of us are neither dems or repubs, nor do we belong to any party.  We have diverse opinions and do not always agree on everything, by any means.  As we have asked others like you before -- if we are so "stupid" to you, then why are you here?  Are you some christian freak who wants to save our very souls?  Are we to be impressed by your partial education?  Do you feel that your persuasive debating style will "open our minds?"  Why are you here?

I don't know what these aluminum beanies y'all keep talking about are, but I don't wear one.  Do you?  What are they for?  Are you recommending them?  Are they like buying duct tape and plastic sheeting to protect you?  "On Tuesday, less than 24 hours after U.S. Fire Administrator David Paulison described a list of useful items, stores in the greater Washington, D.C. area reported a surge in sales of plastic sheeting, duct tape, and other emergency items.  These items, Paulison said, can be helpful after a biological, chemical or radiological attack." (2/11/03)  That was also a country-wide frenzy.  Your Gov't. at work.

When I said "come in here" it was because you are one in a long string of people who post the same old stories.  You sound like the Fox gang, you have your supposed credentials on your sleeves but you're no more educated than many of us, and you parrot the same old crap we've heard oh so many times before.  You think what we say is crap, we think what you say is treasonous crap (as it's based on lies, and causes death and destruction around the globe) and all of us can just keep beating our heads against the wall.

While you're here, look for "InvitedNeoCon" -- he's already a lawyer, he sounds like you (though brighter, with a better sense of humor) and he's already hooked up with ya boys in the White House.  I'm sure they're looking for a few good men.

However, "Semper Fi" has more of an interesting (partial) history than I'd realized ...

"The City of Exeter, in Devon, England adopted the motto in 1588; the motto signifies the city's loyalty to the English Crown. According to White's Devonshire Directory of 1850, Queen Elizabeth I suggested that the city should adopt the motto (perhaps in imitation of her own motto, Semper eadem, 'Always the same'). The suggestion is said to have come in a letter to 'The Citizens of Exeter', in recognition of a gift of money towards the fleet that defeated the Spanish Armada.

The motto is also used by the Royal Navy warship HMS Exeter, which is named after the City of Exeter.

There is a Masonic Lodge in Exeter of the name 'Lodge Semper Fidelis'.

The United States Marine Corps motto, since 1883, is 'Semper Fidelis'. There were three mottos prior to Semper Fidelis, including 'Fortitudine' (meaning 'with courage') antedating the War of 1812, which was a nod to the British Royal Marines' 'Per Mare, Per Terram', and up until 1843 there was also the motto 'To the Shores of Tripoli'."

"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 07:51:46 PM EDT
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First off, thank you for this light hearted post. I am less provoked now...sorry about my tone sometimes. I care about America very much, as  I assume many on this website do. I agree with you about history and the internet. Yes we all have life experiences that teach us things. I agree, I have learned that way also. I was very outspoken when I was in the military about politics. It wasn't until I started going to college that I realized how many dissenters of our government are so mad because of pure ignorance. You saw these polls recently about how many people can't even name two Supreme Court justices...and there was a lot more to it. No you're not supposed to be impressed or intimidated with my formal education, just understand the direction I am coming from. I've been to war too, and seen much there. I am a west coast (southern Cali) republican. That translates to environmental action, I work for a social outreach group (non profit) and I believe a lot in activism. I'm here to dissent the popular opinion here, and give you something to think about. Yeah, it will never change your mind, but we have to learn from each other a little. What does bother me is the constant skewed view of these websites. Can you ever really get objective news today...probably not. It goes to our deepest core what our political ideology is.

It really bothers me when day after day I have to go around and see "bushit" bumper stickers and have liberal faculty members who are supposed to be giving an anthropology class talking about the President's ethics.
I don't like seeing impeach Bush bumper stickers anymore than I liked seeing impeach Clinton stickers.
Love our country, dissent with respect!
Do it in a conventional way...conventional dissent shows confidence in our system...which does work. Unconventional dissent includes people who post things like F** Bush and a*hole etc. etc.
It's everywhere, especially Moveon.org and TO.

My style of debate is not meant to be persuasive...it's meant t o bring professionalism and respect to the debates. Logic and law needs to defeat all the anger and mud slinging.
Christian freak...not exactly..hehe

Roman Catholic...and like all Catholics (I like to think) we try very little to influence people unlike non denominational churches that spring up every day.

Thanks for the NeoCon invite there...
Yeah...I can have a good sense of humor when not provoked. Hey, I was a Marine...sometimes I get carried away. Sorry, anyway...I appreciate the Semper Fidelis history...very enlightening.

I know you say you've heard all the same crap from the Repub's but try and listen. This American Experiment is about democracy. And Democracy needs compromise.

I think Glenn Beck is very funny...


by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:31:27 PM EDT
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if people don't want to see what's frightingly in their faces, what can one say?  If you tell people things you know to be true, from first-hand experience, and they don't believe you, what's to do?  I imagine that you'll say that right back to me.

Haven't we watched boys being groomed for military service as we were growing up -- in many subtle ways, GIJoe, video games, cowboy and indian, all those and more were/are not coincidental.  I know for a fact that much of what we are fed, and eagerly devour, are lies.  But I am called a nut and ridiculed by people who have never "been there."   So be it.

Good luck to you.  The future will be even more difficult for those caught unawares than for people who have had some time to prepare, at least mentally if nothing else.  But it will be a difficult time for all of us.   You have been lied to, Shakell, and I wish you well as I do all of us.

Glenn Beck isn't my kinda guy, though I do agree with him that political correctness has made us superficial.  I think he's a dope about the environment and I wonder what possible qualifications he could think he has to spout the TOTAL crap that he does in that regard.  He also agrees with Bush too much for my tastes, as I agree with Bush about nothing.  Bush is a puppet, and does not deserve all the attention he gets.  But, distractions are there for a very good reason.

I'm not into religions, so I can't be persuaded as to any benefit they might hold, other than as manipulations, controls, and a brilliant mechanism to keep people fighting.  I am against war, every one of them, throughout time.

Shakell, people are ignorant everywhere ... even some of our most scholarly folks.  I would imagine that someone who has been in the military would have an awareness of how important instinct is.  We have lost most of our ability to use our instinct, to our detriment.  Use it.  America has been owned for some time; it is not the democracy that you want it to be.
"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:20:03 PM EDT
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I won't say you are a nut...not at all, I'm sure you know of what you speak. I wish you luck in getting your message out...don't be suprosed however if many don't heed the call.

I hope your view isn't so negative in the future (by negative I mean that relatively) and that you find an ability to believe in the system. It isn't perfect, but it can work for all Americans in one way or another.

Oh...and as an after thought...there are anti-war liberals that are conditioned from birth also. Ones "political socialization" centers around 4 main points. Family, Peers, Education and poliitical climate at time of awareness of politics.
Family is the number one factor in this.

You oppose all wars?
Even WW II?   Most antiwar activists and pacifists usually come up empty on a way to not justify fighting against the Nazis and Japanese (and Italians)...just wondering...

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:47:55 PM EDT
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is correct.   Including that question about WWII (I oppose it too).  And it's not as simple as "ooh, I hate wars" it's from disproving the reasons why we started (entered) the wars.  The informations is all out there, it can be pieced together, but most people are unwilling or lazy or unable to figure it out.  I'm not surprised that many don't heed the call.  We're all "conspiracy nuts" they think.  :-)  But conspiracies abound -- there's enough to go around.   People lie all over the place -- guess it's a matter of figuring out whose lies are the least destructive to LIFE on earth.

My socialization was such that I wasn't influenced in the way most Americans were.  I haven't thought about the factors that influence our political awarenesses, but those sound right.  I'm not a liberal, or conservative, or dem or repub or libertarian or catholic or protestant or all those other silly labels that serve to keep us seperate and fighting with each other.  I am a supporter of ALL life on the planet.

Curious ... does it not matter to people that Prescott Bush financed the Nazis?  That is not a theory, it's well-documented truth.  How can anyone trust a pretender in the white house, whose grandfather helped finance the deaths of our american soldiers that died by Nazi hands?

There is MUCH that you do not know, grasshopper.  But you are not alone -- it has been comprehensively and scholarly proven that Americans are the most brainwashed people on the planet.  It's been going on a long, long time.

You are, to my memory, the first person with an opposing viewpoint to ours (except Soldier Steve, of course) who has actually discussed things civilly.  Thank you.  I apologize for insulting your academic endeavors (but remember, a lot of what they're teaching you IS crap).  History is written by the victors, and that is a history-altering fact.

"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 07:38:22 AM EDT
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Yes, I am aware the Prescott was involved with the Nazi's...that was a long time ago, in a different world than we live in today. That has little in connection with the current president. Just because they were family members...doesn't mean much.
One of the most fascinating things in political science is the study of political socialization. A family can come back to a reunion and each of the siblings that grew up under the same roof can each have grossly different political ideologies.
If that is true, imagine what happens with generations...and as America has radically changed.

Support for this country was much more powerful in the 50's. How can so many people claim that today we are more ignorant and controlled? Everywhere there are dissenters of the U.S. Government...and I am supposed to believe that the government is some grand machine that socializes us and keeps us under it's thumb. That wasn't even true in the 50's, and since the democratic revolution...it certainly isn't true.

Also, we appear brainwashed as Americans because of our SOCIETY. (again...taken lots of sociology classes). When you grow up in a society (especially one as prosperous as ours) and you see the comfortable lives Americans live, and the charities and the sports events and the luxuries and the system of government that gives us the power to elect our leaders and speak out against them...even saying kill our president, impeach him, f*** congress and so on...it is not hard to see why people come to love this country.
We grow up in it...Sociology teaches us that we are in society without knowing it like a fish is unaware it is in water.

It's not some brainwashing thing...it's society. I fear too many people like yourself look for hidden answers because they are unhappy with the way life is.

It is the system, it works for us, and it can continue to work for us. We are American, and we are a great people. By no means do I look at other cultures and say with disgust that they are our enemies because they don't think like us.
A lot of countries that have no business being proud of themselves are very proud of themselves. America is constantly criticized for being that way, but the little guy is not. The international community is always harping on us...but I'm supposed to believe that we are the oppressors?
We do have economic interests all over the world. Some say it is damaging. It's business. Many, many countries economically interact with us, and have interests here in America.

Poorly educated, indoctrinated, unemployed youth of third world countries are angry with the way things are. Who's the easiest to blame...the most visible, richest country. America.
I know you've heard all this before, no need to continue...Ill say this.

The history books that exists in college (especially in California) in 2006 is extremely critical of America's past. They shed light on a lot of things, even in support of things that make us look better than people thought we were. Slavery for example, that was an eye opener last year when I was in history class. Anyway, what can I say to argue against a statement like...history is written by the victors. It undermines any real debate. Stating that anything an educated person says when trying to bring history to the table by simply claiming that history is completely skewed as we know...it is not a good way to argue in my humble opinion.

America is OK to be proud of itself. We live rich, but we are coming to the realization of our impact, and are doing what we can. Change takes time. Work WITH the system, not against it to make change.
Have faith in the system. It has made us the most powerful country on Earth, all while still giving its people the protections, liberties and freedoms they demand as the true power holders. We do try to help the world, but opinions differ, and many ARE out to get us because they are disgusted with the way they believe we do things. They see what they want, just like they claim we do.


by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 11:40:51 AM EDT
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"they hate us for our freedom??"  "Americans are asking, why do they hate us? They hate what we see right here in this chamber -- a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other."  What a putz.

Shakell, I was thinking you were opening up your mind -- we were actually having a conversation.  Was I wrong?  Now you've gone back to insulting everyone and showing that the original assessment of your awareness was correct.  You seem young, so it makes sense that you have not had much life experience.

Yes Prescott (and W's other grandfather too, George Herbert Walker, btw) and giving money to the Nazis (and much more that you will have to search for yourself) was a long time ago -- BUT this has been a long-unfolding plan.  I am not proud of America, and I do not have faith in its system.

No point in discussing this further -- you won't listen to what we're saying (really listen and think) and some of us KNOW that you are wrong.  Later ...

"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 07:19:02 PM EDT
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but rather the many viewers who are reading the information that you present.  This person is hopeless, like my x-sister-in-law.  Listen to his diatribe, one has to pity the fella, you know the old adage a little of knowledge in the hands of a fool is dangerous.  He's the only intelligent person here, the only one that's education, the rest of us are ignorant idiots, uneducated, unlearned, never attended college or studied anything in life.  Don't waste your precious time on the UNINITIATED.  Shackell is a perfect example of what we're facing in this ideological civil war that's underway in America.  We must'nt be deceived as to what's happening in this country.  
"We must take back our nation from all the people who think that anything that offends them should be removed." - Unknown American
by emah1 on Tue Sep 5th, 2006 at 10:26:05 AM EDT
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I believe we needed to be in WWII, but unfortunately, we were'nt much better than what we were fighting, as witnessed by the unnecessary incineration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Peacedog
by Peacedog (louisrue@charter.net) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 10:31:33 AM EDT
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AFDB Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanies...usually used to protect the head from mind control rays from the U.S. government radiating out of Alaska...etc. etc.
Ever see the movie signs with Mel Gibson? They use them in the movie to resist the aliens. Hilarious stuff...just using it as a cynical example of the crap on the internet. I am by no means claiming that is the caliber of info here, but some peoples diaries have some weird junk that's laughable.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 08:36:43 PM EDT
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Didn't see that movie.  Don't really dig alien flicks.

Yes, some weird diaries go up -- some good ones go up (and too many diaries altogether makes for lousy, fragmented discussions, but that's another subject).  Some comments are excellent and enlightening -- some make you want to cry, or pull your hair out.  That's everywhere.  If you had been around TO longer, you'd know that I am more out on a limb than some (many?) people here.  If you want to ridicule anyone, go ahead on, but I've heard the party line before.  I was never in the military, but was raised by a career military officer dad, and I also have a sharp tongue.  But, as I said before, I'm tired of arguing with people who have never once listened to what we've had to say.  You ridicule us, we ridicule you, and we're all stupid for not seeing what's as plain as the noses on our faces and doing something about it.

Do y'all ever ask questions when you join us on TO?  Are you never curious as to why some really brave and aware people are shouting from the rooftops against this government which has done more than a few illegal things?  Have you ever read Noam Chomsky?  If not, find his DVD "Manufacturing Consent," open your mind, do yourself a favor, and LISTEN.  I've listened to lots of most all of the MSM.  I know two sides to compare.  If all one ever has is one side, how does one learn the truth?  One doesn't, and can relegate themselves to the brainwashed and conditioned.  Smugly.  Go figure.

"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:49:22 PM EDT
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Interesting...didn't see that one coming. You feel like you've broken away from the way you were raised and now you are more enlightened?
I find that often to be misleading in itself. Hope you became anti-war for another reason.
I was a liberal in high school, and even a few years into the military...but in about 2000 I turned, rather sharply, and I don't think I'l look back. Saw too many things I also thought were lies, and I don't believe the ideological visions of the liberals for America's future will make her what she is supposed to be (and what the founders...namely the federalists) wanted America to be.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 11:53:30 PM EDT
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It's not so simple as I've "broken away from the way you were raised and now you are more enlightened?"  It's more like -- I paid attention to the realities of being around people in power, and learned from it.  It's not like a rebellious thing -- I used to believe just as my (adopted) parents did.  It is very common to jump to the opposite viewpoint, when one is looking for change in oneself, but my changes were incremental (with learning) not reactionary.  But balance is what we should all be striving for, and our society is out of balance at this time, in every way.  We must not continue in this fashion.

I became anti-war when I moved to Europe in the '50s and saw what I saw and listened to the little people that were ravaged in WWII.  It kicked up during Nam when I was working in the Pentagon (talk about a place to learn!) as a lowly Sec. to the Ass't. Sec. of the AF.

America needs a complete shakeup from where we have been and what we've been doing.  Again, I say to you Shakell, there are plenty of lies on the right and the left.  Respect yourself enough to question it ALL.

"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 07:56:26 AM EDT
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So you have been around. You have a very good point.

I have faith in our system.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 11:13:41 AM EDT
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You are a bright young man Shakell and no doubt you think you're really schooling us here on debate, logic, the internet, and any number of other subjects you apparently feel qualified to pontificate about to the benighted blog masses.  What you don't realize is, we're a community here, and social context counts.  We know each other well and we don't know you at all.  Yet you barge in the saloon door, confidently brandishing your dime-store six-guns and thinking everyone will be so impressed, when actually they're all muttering, "who the hell is this jackass?"

It's especially amusing that you sneer at anti-war activists who never served.  One would think your coke-head president, who avoided combat back when he had the chance, and now starts wars he will never personally have to fight, would make a much juicier target for your contempt.  While other boys his age were dying in the jungles of Vietnam, he went to the head of a long line of qualified pilots wanting to join the Texas Air National Guard, then couldn't muster the minimal effort required to show up for duty.  But he sure loves to put on a flight suit now.

You wag your finger at jbyopa for disrespecting the president, saying it "undermines the legitimacy of our democracy"---as if that legitimacy resides in the person of a single man.  Do you really know so little of your Constitution and its legal foundations?

Then you impudently advise him not to get so angry, saying it shows how little ground he has to stand on---as if there were something wrong with righteous anger (which you shortly thereafter confess to experiencing yourself more often than you'd like).  Why don't you take a deep breath and do a humility check?  We're a tolerant lot, but you have managed in a short time to insult everyone here with your imagined superiority.  I hope you don't think you're going to effect any persuasion that way.

You don't like impeachment talk---yet impeachment is provided for in the Constitution.  It's our legal remedy for bad leadership, our alternative to violent overthrow.  Why do you see it as unpatriotic to exercise our Constitutional rights?  This is not about something trivial, like sex with an intern.  This is unprovoked wars for profit, murder and torture of detainees (which are war crimes), usurpation of the Constitution which guarantees our freedom.  These are very serious crimes, yet you urge us to be silent and you ridicule our anger.

You scoff at unnamed "pathetic websites", apparently conflating them with this one, and then go off on some rant about mind control and monkeys in the White House.  What, I ask, does that have to do with TruthOut?

Bringing "professionalism and respect to debates"---you are not the first to misunderstand what we're doing here Shakell.  We are not a debate society.  Our business is discussion and sharing of ideas and information, and occasional reasoned argument of fine points.  Then some hot dog like you comes along challenging us to debate.  You misunderstand what we're about.  When you enter a new blog, it's wise to wait a bit and get acquainted before elbowing your way in.

We don't have to defend our ideas, or our conversations, or ourselves to you Shakell.  You can like us or not.  As irie put it, if we're so stupid, then what are you doing here?

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Tue Aug 29th, 2006 at 04:31:56 PM EDT
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Patronizing me...Fallacy.
Appeal to my age...Fallacy
Intimidating me because you all know each other and I'm an outside "jackass"...Fallacy.

Rantings about the president...oh dear.
Ever flown over Baghdad? I have.
SO has THE president...in a helicopter. Trust me...it's a little more than dangerous.

If I thought I could persuade anyone (with righteous anger or not) about our political climate...I sure wouldn't start here. I engage in real activism in the real world, that has real impact. This is just a hobby for a few weeks. I'll be gone soon enough. Just need to rustle some feathers to make sure your sharp on your game.

I don't see it as unpatriotic to exercise your constitutional rights...but you guys are way out there because you believe somehow that you are above parties..blah blah. Your political philosophy sticks out like a sore thumb in here. You actually represent such an immense minority that no one in the country will ever seriously think of impeaching this president. You do realize that is in no way a decent slice of the pie do you...

What does mind control and monkeys have to do with this website? Truthout is full of all kinds of outrageous examples of things rooted in reality...and then tiny details are tweaked, as are the "sources" used here by many. It's not spin...it's subtle indoctrination. I got people telling me the Masons control D.C. and that arsenic is in the water. What am I supposed to think? That you're lucid?

 The elbowing my way in comment: Fallacy of Ad Hominen
Calling me a hot dog: Fallacy of Ad Hominem.
And the list goes on.

That was a beautiful ending designed to make me think...it did...you really got through to me. I'm a changed man. You don't have to prove yourself to me...I love it.

You're such a minority from the real views of the American political climate.
Please, do me a favor and stop....please stop...acting like you're so special.

What am I doing here...like I said...I'll probably be gone soon. Got much more to do in life...since I am so young and all.


by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 12:39:10 AM EDT
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but come on Shakell you deserved it.  Stop talking about logical fallacies because it just sounds silly.  You know you provoked us, on purpose, with every sort of ad hominem.

Look, there are military officers here with long and distinguished service records.  There are PhDs and other graduate degrees.  Many of us are accomplished, broadly traveled, and wise from long life experience.  To speak to us of your undergrad GPA is just puerile.  Do you think you're the only one who ever made an A in college?  I'm sure you've heard the expression, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  What you're suffering from at the moment is a little bit of knowledge, and it's got you all excited and frankly, overconfident.  But just because you've got a 101 textbook in front of you doesn't make you an expert on any subject.  Even the guy who wrote the textbook may not be an expert on the subject.  The best and brightest in a given field don't write textbooks!

Give it some time Shakell.  Read.  Think.  Listen to others.  Keep in mind that the full range of truth does not reside in any one book.  When you have a genuine command of a field of study, then you can speak authoritatively.  Until then, you just look callow---whatever your age.

We're not bad people and we're not fools either.  Would it kill you to consider our arguments and read our sources?

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 09:29:43 AM EDT
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activism you demonstrate?  Why is that the left allows the right mentality to "share" while the right bans any alternative thinking from their forums?  Who, then, is actually demonstrating their appreciation for constitutional rights?  
"For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead." Thomas Jefferson
by lizbitchwitch (saylinbackagin@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:49:31 AM EDT
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Shakell sounds a lot like Political Diva. Could we be dealing with the same person, or is the similarity in writing just a coincidence???

Gotta wonder.........
"A slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts.": Euripides
by jbyopa (shaking.the.trees@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 07:42:02 AM EDT
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Similar prose....more polite than "truthN+1" or beshakus...or patriot1950.
Oft Evil Will Shall Evil Mar - Theoden
by Not An American (naa-truthout@hotmail.com) on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 07:59:43 AM EDT
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More like patriot 1950 whom I actually grew to like a little.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Wed Aug 30th, 2006 at 10:01:57 AM EDT
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In a real Political Science class you learn this about governmental theories.

Elite theory: The view that he upper economic/Political elites have the real power  in the democracy and we the people don not.

Pluralism: We have competing interests in society...and they should compete. Political and economically.

The latter is the real deal...if it's not true then why are there still two parties that fight each other so much?

No JFK/moon landing type crap please.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:56:59 PM EDT
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You mean unlike the community college type that you attend?  
"For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead." Thomas Jefferson
by lizbitchwitch (saylinbackagin@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 1st, 2006 at 10:51:47 AM EDT
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You assune I am a Democrat with more or less liberal leanings. You assume wrong.
I vote for the best person, and I really do not care what party they are in. The Dems and Repubs both share blame for the quagmire we find ourself in today. However gutless many of the Dems have been though, the Republicans control both Houses and the Presidency, so the bulk of blame for this fiasco falls on them.
 The problems I have with the Republican Congress and Senate and their recent performance are fourfold: 1) They refuse to exercise their constitutional duties, and they have allowed the Executive Branch to accumulate dangerously unchecked power. This is a short term strategy that will come back and haunt this country now and in the future.
  1. They have nominated and elected a man who is clearly incompetent and IMHO, delusional. They can and should have done better. They wanted a tool they could manipulate, and McCain clearly was not that person in 2000. The vicious SC campaign may have been Roves baby, but the RNC was the midwife.
  2. The Republicans have always stood for fiscal responsibility and a smaller Federal Government. I refer you to the largest growth of the Federal beast ever recorded, and the madhouse spending and tax cuts that have combined to ensure that our National Debt will be a legacy that keeps on giving, to our children and grandchildren. I guess all is fine as long as China continues to fund that debt. That sounds like a viable long term strategy to me; sell your debt to the country that is your biggest economic rival, and maybe, one day, your largest military rival.
Last, and certainly not least, our invasion and subsquent occupation of Iraq, and our silence during the unprovoked Israeli aggression in Lebanon, created more enemies for the US, and hobbled our friends. The feeling of international unity ofter 9-11 has been replaced by international loathing. Neat trick by Bush and gang.
As far as closed doors and what I believe may have happened behind them, rest assured that what has happened in public, before Congress, the Media, and the people, provides more than enough information for me, and for many other, to form our opinions.
Insofar as my disrespecting the President, allow me to suggest that when he stops disrespecting his office, he may gain some respect. Do not hold your breath. This is a man, who, after all makes NO mistakes.
"A slave is he who cannot speak his thoughts.": Euripides
by jbyopa (shaking.the.trees@hotmail.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 09:31:22 AM EDT
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You seem to assume quite a bit yourself here, what with slippery slope fallacies all over your arguments.

AMERICA IS DOOMED!!!

Know how many people throughout history have toted the exact same argument you are making right now...just change the details a little. The bottom line is this. Americans love America, and we do our best. All this other crap you've been indoctrinated into believing is unfortunate.

Once again: Republicans were the last 5 out of 7 presidents. Liberals have almost always been the nagging dissenting voice, and they always will be. Simple as that. Barraging my writing here with all kinds of specific ANECTDOTAL evidence will never change the real picture of history. Republicans represent America, harder left wing democrats and liberals DO NOT.  Intellectualism DOES NOT = Liberalism! Liberals help the course of American history...they do not shape the modern day ideals. If u wanna respond I suggest a lack of logical fallacies (if u don't know what they are take a Logic class under Philosophy) and try not to rant...please. Conspiracy theories about (logical fallacy of slippery slope)  how America is going to become a dictatorship because of wire taps and "secret" laws and the like is simply a waste of time.

Chasing your constantly changing arguments is like running after a jack rabbit. I assert that you propose theories (which 90% of interent left wing "truth" websites consist of...simple conjecture) and you reply back with... "rest assured that what has happened in public, before Congress, the Media, and the people, provides more than enough information for me, and for many other, to form our opinions."

Yeah...not working really...you WANT all these things to be true.
Just because you say we have created more enemies abroad with the war DOES NOT make it true. It is a totally unmeasurable thing to assert. Writing that  is absurd without real evidence.

THE POLITICS OF FEAR.
Fear our own president more than world wide  international terroism

War never solved anything except for communism, slavery, fascism, and nazism. Coming soon: Terrorism!

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Mon Aug 28th, 2006 at 06:32:39 PM EDT
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Ask the University for your money back. Why bother getting a Poli-Sci degree when you already know all the answers?? Better yet, take a course in remedial reading. You obviously have not read my post, because you still insist on flogging the Liberal Conservative red herring that seems to be the pat answer in today's politics.
You seem to believe that there is no hard proof of Bush's criminal behavi