TruthOut - Town Meeting
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Torture is Torture, Right?

By planetpatriot

Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 02:36:31 PM EDT ::

Not in Bush world. . .

As most of us know, recently the Supreme Court ruled that al Qaeda detainees are protected by the Geneva Conventions, which ban "humiliating and degrading treatment" in well delineated fashion.


So, the 'law abiding' (lol) Bush administration is now telling the military that it may not (One supposes, no one in the administration had previously read the Geneva Conventions?):

--force detainees to be naked, pose in a sexual manner or perform sexual acts.

--place hoods over detainees heads or duct tape eyes.

--beat or electrically shock, burn or otherwise inflict any form of pain on detainees.

--use hypothermia or treatment which will lead to heat injury of detainees.

--perform mock executions in front of detainees.

--deprive detainees of the necessary food, water and medical care.

--use dogs in interrogations of detainees.

But, not surprisingly, this sadistic administration wants it codified into law that the CIA may not be constrained from doing these things:

--attention grab, which involves the rough shaking of detainees.

--attention slap, an open-handed slap to the face of detainees.

--belly slap, meant to cause temporary pain to detainees, but no internal injuries.

--long-term standing and sleep deprivation of detainees, 40 hours at least.

--cold room, in which detainees are left naked in cells kept in the 50s and frequently doused with cold water.

--water boarding, in which detainees faces are covered with cellophane, then water is poured over it triggering an unbearable gag reflex.

. . .and who knows what else, because its 'secret'.

Since when does the law of the land not apply to everyone? Ahh, only in Bush world. . .

Scarey!

BLOG ON

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While some of the techniques you have listed have not been objectively proven, it is the ambiguity of art 3 that is the essential issue here. While I understand the desire not to harm ourselves in overstepping the bounds of the Geneva conventions, ambiguities exist. They are being sifted through and legislation will prove to be the determining factor in the methods we utilize. For those actions of the past, while it is nice to produce opinions of what people show happened...none of us where there. Just like trying people in the media is a farce, so is judging those actions that may or may not have even happened, but which we have been led to believe happened. (We are not trying to rewrite, simply to reinterpret...yes, I understand the concern and outrage by those on truth out about this...it is because you care...but lets not tie our hands either)

Oh, I know...Shakell has just opened up the can of worms...
Let me see the sources and the bloody pictures and articles...


by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:17:24 PM EDT

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-these are specific methods not approved for the military and those specifically proposed as approved for the cia (according to a recent report by abc news and cnn online).  whether any and/or all (or other perhaps worse methods)of them has been used by either institution- you are right, there is no way of truly knowing, yet.  but as for the cia for instance, do you really think that under the cloak of secrecy in which the agency operates that these 'techniques' have not been used- either by the cia itself or its proxies?  i mean really now, dont be so naive. . . and as for not tying our hands, im sorry but i have always believed that wrong is wrong.  anyway, the overwhelming evidence is that using any of the above techniques does not give valid info anyway, so why use them?

Blog On
PLANET REVOLUTION
by planetpatriot (planetpatriot@gmail.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:58:54 PM EDT
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You're right...wrong is wrong, I agree with most everything you say...and I'm not so naive to believe that the CIA hasn't used some of these things, they very well may have. Look, I see both sides of the argument. There are some very compelling reasons why we should and should not reinterpret some of our techniques. As for someone who has been to SERE school (NAS Brunswick) I can tell you that stress positions and the like are certainly not torture, and the language of the GC as it is in common art. III has some very ambiguous, enveloping things in it that need a more solid definition...if not only to ensure that when we break the GC...people CAN be held accountable and there will be no ambiguity on that issue, but also in my own mind so that we may use some techniques that otherwise we may not be using that could very well be a benefit to us.
See, wrong is wrong...but what is the perspective on that?
That is the question, you may think that blaring red hot chili peppers and stress positions is wrong, but I don't.

One note: You are absolutely correct in asserting that many of the techniques do NOT give valid info. That is an exceptional observation, and a correct one. Which is why the U.S. military does not employ them. With out getting into specifics because I simply can't......."torture" is only an extremely small part of SERE school, and the other stuff...well that is how to really extract what you need out of someone. "That" however is not up for discussion by me.


by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:20:19 PM EDT
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Oh, and even though some (even on my side of the isle) want to extend GC privileges to captured terrorists...they are not eligible anyway.
This speech is about a year old. Wrote it for a presentation at the university...anyway, take a look. Remember it's about a year and a half old, so if some of it sounds outdated...please bear with...

Rhetoric of Human Rights Violations by the U.S. Military in the War on Terror

I. Introduction

     A. Attention Statement
Surely everyone has at some time in their life been falsely accused of something terrible. Even worse, you may have been accused of this while actually trying to help the situation. Remember how frustrating it was to try and prove your innocence. You may have even gone through a phase of anger. It was only a misunderstanding but the consequences may have been disastrous.
     B. Subject or Thesis Statement
Now we should address this brutal rhetoric about human rights violations by the U.S. military in the war on terror.
     C. Significance of Subject
It is vitally important to protect the ethical intentions of America's mission in the war on terror abroad and at home. If we undermine the fact that our extension of the fight, namely the military, is operating in a manner that is inconsistent with a democratic nation attempting to rid the world of terror, then many may view us as no better than those who spread terror themselves.
     D. Point Preview
Today we will discuss some problems that can be identified as rhetoric of human rights violations against the military, what reasons cause this rhetoric to reach the international public, and what we can do to make a difference and gain back some of the truth in this conflict.
II. Main Point One: Problem
     A. Subject Statement
Currently the spin and confusion on the situation of human rights violations by the U.S. comes in several forms. The most visible and widespread is that of the media reporting on these stories. Another is politicians who in an attempt to do the right thing sometimes end up spreading the wrong image and lastly the viewpoint by individuals abroad that we are actively engaging in, and it is our policy to, violate human rights of detainees in the war on terror.
     B. Documentation: Problem I
According to aim.org last updated June 25, 2005 the media has a duty to the American public and to the members of the military to produce concrete, verifiable evidence which details accusations of human rights violations in full. Many view these human rights comments as a hostile attempt to dishonor the men and women of the U.S. Armed Forces who are serving their country in dangerous regions, including Iraq and Afghanistan.
     C. Illustration
The media runs stories from independent agencies that call Guantanamo Bay a gulag, or Soviet death camp, and members of Capitol Hill that compare American troops to Nazi's, but then fails to mention the good quality of life that has been created specifically for the detainees. Rule 18 in the Al Qaeda training manual is to make false claims of torture, a missed detail in the mainstream media. What's worse is that the media seems to uncritically accept the torture claims made by these detainees in the face of this rule. Prominent members of the media have even said that the U.S. military deliberately targets journalists and their studios with impunity, American or otherwise. They have said this without a single shred of evidence.
     D. Signpost Statement One
The news agencies may report inaccurately but what is to be said about our very own publicly elected officials, the American politicians?
     E. Documentation: Problem II
 A May 16th, 2005 article in the Los Angeles Times states that "John Yoo, a law professor at UC Berkeley, wrote a series of memos redefining torture advising that the Geneva conventions do not apply to members of Al Qaeda. In response Sen. Edward Kennedy demanded from the senate floor last month that Yoo and others be held responsible as war criminals for their part in what he called the torture scandal by American soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
     F. Illustration
As you can see this in itself is the logical fallacy known as false cause. The senator only wants what's best for America for sure; however, this struggle over what is right in this conflict and what is wrong can distort the facts and create rhetoric. Former President Bill Clinton said that Guantanamo Bay needs to be closed down or cleaned up. He also said in reference to the torture allegations that if you rough up somebody bad enough they'll eventually tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to stop. Exactly the reason the military doesn't engage purposefully in torture, because it can lead to false intelligence. Senator Dick Durbin was the one to compare American treatment of prisoners to that of the Soviet gulags. Later he apologized, his intentions good however, his judgment flawed.
     G. Signpost Statement Two
Our leaders in Washington have pure intentions, just as our troops do, but the message can become clouded and misleading which has spread the wrong image about America and our treatment of detainees.
     H. Documentation: Problem III
     According to usatoday.com last updated July 20, 2005 the accusation that detainee abuse is policy is wrong. A pentagon investigation presented to the senate found no link between alleged misconduct and defense department policy. A small amount of physical abuse emerges from individual behavior, not official policy.
     I. Illustration
The U.S. military does not engage actively in sanctioned torture. This is your military we are talking about. These are fathers, mothers, aunts and uncles, brothers and sisters that many in America know and love. They are neighbors and friends and colleagues and when you look around you do you really think that anyone in this room would obey orders to torture another human being. Why then do so many around the world and at home believe the troops are capable of such things. The viewpoint that it is a conscience effort by the American government, which is of the people, can lead to an impression that we are a country who is out to impose our will and commit atrocities to reach that end.
     J. Summary Statement
So as we have seen there are many ways in which this perception of the violation of human rights by the American military can manifest itself. The problem this presents is that it can affect our trust of one another, our way of life, the view of our government and democracy and fuel the fire for our enemies.
     K. Transition Statement
Now that we understand the problems that create and stem from this rhetoric of human rights violations and alleged detainee torture lets take a look at what causes create these problems.
III. Main Point Two: Causes
     A. Subject Statement
Media and their sources with inaccurate data, politicians and their leanings and beliefs, and the general dispute about whether or not the detainees can even be considered prisoners of war under the Geneva Convention are the causes for the spread of so much rhetoric about the U.S. and human rights violations.
     B. Documentation
According to the July 21st, 2005 issue of the Lantern if there is any bias in the media objectivity is the bias. As journalists try to scrub their stories clean of prejudice, the only remaining opinions come from their sources.
     C. Illustration
There is also the bias by omission which is not so dismissive of journalistic responsibility. Bias by omission involves ignoring facts that can disprove a claim and cloud the truth. That in itself is suppressing evidence, how angry would you be if a criminal got away with a horrible crime because the police hid evidence that would have led to his capture?  And it is an appeal to our ignorance, the media is saying, well, if you can not disprove this story then it must be true. Where is the responsibility to the truth? A good example of this is the story about U.S. guards at Guantanamo bay flushing the Koran down the toilet. Not a torture case but it sparked human rights questions. There was a source for that story, a top investigative reporter but was he biased? Also the evidence later surfaced that the Koran incident was a lie and that outright desecration of the Koran had occurred numerous times by the inmates themselves.
     D. Signpost Statement
The reasons that stories become twisted into rhetoric in the media can strangely parallel with the reasons the stories become altered on Capitol Hill.
     D. Documentation
The July 12th, 2004 issue of The Nation states that political officials use deceptive claims and innuendo that can not easily be disproved. They make sure that they create enough wiggle room that they can pretend that they never meant to imply what they clearly meant to imply.
     E. Illustration
It's the political game. Not always are the intentions outright vindictive from the core, sometimes words just come out wrong. The causes for rhetoric sprouting from political mouths comes in two forms, either what they say is misconstrued or some political agenda to further their affiliated party, or themselves is involved.  Senator Dick Durbin said on the senate floor that America had no concern for human beings in reference to Al Qaeda detainees. Later when he apologized he read a carefully worded statement acknowledging he used a poor choice of words and that he regretted any misunderstanding his comments had caused. It appears that his comments were indeed misconstrued but some remain skeptical that his political antiwar motives led to the statement.
     F. Signpost Statement
Our own media and government can send mixed messages and cloud the truth, but a major contributing factor to that is the very definition of human rights is confusing when it comes to terrorist detainees.
     G. Documentation: Cause Three
The February 4th, 2004 issue of Time magazine clearly states that Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters flunk the requirements for status as Geneva POW's. Lawful combatants must: have a commander responsible for their conduct, wear a uniform or visible insignia, carry their weapons openly and generally conduct their operations in accordance wit the laws and customs of war.
     H. Illustration
It is vital to forbid a soldier from mimicking a civilian, but that is exactly what al Qaeda does. Terror organizations are not covered at all in the Geneva conventions, and even the Taliban was not a regular army nor did they occupy the Afghan seat at the U.N. Our constitution does not protect our captured enemies. Many stipulate that all these reasons still do not make it acceptable for America, who must uphold the moral high ground, to torture our captives. That is where the real confusion comes in because none of the alleged incidents, even the Abu Ghraib scandal involved anything that could be considered torture. Some other human rights may have been violated by the misconduct of soldiers taking it upon themselves but none of it was sanctioned by the military or America. Whether these terrorist should be considered prisoners or outlaws, in no way has any link been proven that it has been official U.S. policy, or military policy to deal with detainees in any manner other than that consistent with high ethical standards. Nevertheless everyday you will hear and see prisoner torture rhetoric at every angle, and rhetoric claiming that human rights of terrorists have been violated purposefully by America. That can be seen as a reflection of all Americans, and I hardly think anyone I know would consider themselves upholders of torturous war crimes.
     J. Summary Statement
The information coming in and going out from the front lines of this conflict can be manipulated, misconstrued and simply confusing enough to create a rhetoric that has massive potential to do harm to all parties involved.
     K. Transition Statement
Now that we have explored the problems and causes of this rhetoric lets take a look at some of the things we can do to help make a difference on this subject.
IV. Main Point Three: Solution
     A. Subject Statement
The current state of reports and information on how America is violating human rights in its war on terror cannot be completely stopped but everyone can do their own part in seeing that honesty and truth infiltrate their way into this web of confusion and deceit.
     B. Documentation
According to the book How to identify, expose, and correct liberal media bias by Brent H. Baker you are given a detailed explanation on how to identify the eight types of media bias complete with real life examples of each; step-by-step instructions on how to analyze news stories and conduct studies proving media bias.
     C. Illustration
Arming ourselves with the tools to see through some of the bias and some of the bewilderment will help everyone make more informed decisions instead of simply taking everything that they see and hear at face value. Blogging your reactions online is very helpful in getting the message out that a lot of these torture and human rights claims are just that, claims and nothing more. Mediareaserch.org is an excellent website to exchange ideas about the media. You will get feed back from others with good viewpoints, some that will oppose your view even, but that's what it's about, the objective truth.
     D. Signpost Statement
While seeking truth and accuracy in the media is a way to help, recognizing problems in our political system is another way to become closer to the reality of the situation.
     E. Documentation
The spinsanity.org website last updated January 19th, 2005 believes that an engaged citizenry, active press and strong network of fact checking websites and blogs can help turn the tide of deception that we now see.
     F. Illustration
Reading up on the political spin on issues specifically involving the military in the war on terror is paramount to clearing the fog that now looms over our methods of detaining captive terrorists. The spin sanity website cited earlier is an amazing hub of information that counters rhetoric with reason. Hosts of topics, columns and case studies show the facts in the most objective and unbiased way possible. You can join their email list, donate money and learn all about how politics can create a rhetoric that we can all sift through and that together we can stop the spin.
     G. Signpost Statement
Raising your own awareness while sharing and spreading education about the truth is very important but above all we must make a difference through the federal government and the law.
     H. Documentation
A July 23rd, 2005 article of the Washington Post reveals that Senator John McCain plans to introduce new legislation on prisoner abuse next week. One McCain amendment would set uniform standards for interrogating anyone detained by the defense department.
     H. Illustration
We all need to become more involved in our government today, but this issue is on the forefront of Americas own character. Letting your congressmen know how you feel is important. Participate in polls available on all the major news websites and many .org and .gov websites. Senator McCain sits on the House Armed Services Committee along with other senators backing this new bill being brought forth this week. It will be in the news but remember to engage the full facts. Let the committee know how you feel and what your viewpoints are at their website www.house.gov/hasc/ or by phone at (202) 225-4151.
     J. Summary Statement
As you can see through education, awareness and simply becoming involved in even the smallest way can help bring more truth to light.
V. Conclusion
     A. Summary Statement
Rhetoric is around us every day and comes in many forms but rarely is it as serious as when it affects us all, clouds the truth and spreads dissent as it can in this instance.
     B. Post Point Preview
Today we have looked at the problems, causes and solutions to the rhetoric that exists about America and human rights violations in the international war on terror.
     C. Significance of Subject
The seemingly overwhelming coverage and general outward appearance that America engages in torture and voluntarily breaks human rights laws is damaging in many ways to the message we are trying to send the world. It is not an accurate measure of what this great country is about. It puts us all at a greater risk as the world continually receives the impression that we are capable of war crimes instead of spreading freedom and helping people.
     D. Wraparound
Remember back to that time when you were accused falsely of that terrible deed when you were only trying to help. That is happening again to you today. It is happening to us all, because we all represent this democracy that is of and by the people. Rhetoric is turning our hard work into nothing more than a horrendous crime against humanity. It is up to all of us to seek out and demand the truth.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 06:53:36 PM EDT
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supposed to be the senate armed services committee...but I think I accidentally uploaded one of my rough draft...oh well, doesn't matter anymore anyway.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 08:38:34 PM EDT
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"They" perform torture in a barbarian form, we do it civilized. See there is a distinct difference.

The man here tortures you because he loves you and wants to save you from yourself.

The man there tortures you because he hates you, and wants to save himself from you.

But on a more serious note.. 3 years of torture, NO WMD not even a trace... Noone rendered has identified a sleeper in the US As Far as anyone knows...

Besides that.. According to "sources", the information an arrested "Terrorist" has is only considered for 24 hours valid by the government, After passing of this time, his links have changed because of his arrest. Oh did I mention that the NSA ALLREADY FOR YEARS, has been studying the Americans and their communications and NO Al Quatta sleeper identified...

What a religion complete with worshipable icons...
Them evil terrorists are almost the devil himselve, gladly we are the "good" side.

2010 Telecaster for the public with the new national quote:

Lead us, oh glorious leader, send our heroes on the path of virtue to our victourious global victory, where everyone that could defend itself against our recource and land grab has been killed as a terrorist.

<clap> <clap!!> <CLAP!!!!>
<Standing Ovation>
<Cheer>
<scream with open hand on heart!><!!!VICTORY SACRET!!!><!!!VICTORY SACRET!!!><!!!VICTORY SACRET!!!>

:-)

by TranceAm on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 04:20:07 PM EDT

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is that we either have the moral high ground, or we are no better than them.  Are we savages?  Are we no better than bin Laden?  

I would like to think that we, the American people, are a civilized, emotional people.

And, as Gen. Powell has just pointed out, we have a vested interest in playing by the rules - if it's okay for us to do it to them, then it's okay for them to do it to us.

I am a veteran.  As such, I care about those in the military.  Torture is morally, ethically, and legally wrong, and I do not want it practiced on us any more than I want to practice it on them.

And I have an even greater vested interest:  what of my daughter, my only child?  What if she gets called back up, sent somewhere nasty, and they do these dispicable things to her because we did these dispicable things to them?  She is my child, as every one of those victims of American torture is someone else's child.

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:46:00 PM EDT

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Yeah, I'm coming up on my first year since EAS on sept. 18th...so I'm still in the IRR until 2008...and since they are recalling Marines...who knows? I could be going back - how's that for a vested interest...

however, in reply to one of your points...they are going to treat us bad no matter how we act. No matter what we are infidels who deserve an infidels death. Period. No amount of moral high ground will change that.

I basically agree with you though.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 08:43:00 PM EDT
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But please allow me to speak as a daddy for a moment:

Yes, you most certainly have a vested interest.  I wouldn't want to have my ass shot off, either.  But better me than my daughter.  There are certain loves more powerful than self-love.

This post really has no meaning, it is not intended to generate controversy or anything.  I just want to speak of my love for my daughter.  I do not want her killed, nor tortured, nor raped.

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:04:44 PM EDT
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I understand....you're a good man.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:46:07 PM EDT
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You, too.

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:03:46 PM EDT
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Uggggh Shoot me?! Please?! I don't wanna watch this old tyrant first thing in the morning or any other time of day. He was talking a moment ago about torture. He literally says it is all necesary because not only did they nail our ass in 9/11 (which is a dubious claim at best) But he said they have hit us since then too. Where did this happen Mr. demagog dictator? Oh right are yout talking about the thing in california where you ummm "stopped" it before it could happen but it was soooooo close that no one ever heard about it not even the people in political power in that region? Come on stop lieing already. He says he is working with congress... I think if congress is willing to work with this loonie they are all loonies too and should be impeached on the grounds of insanity. I can't believe the shite coming out of this monsters mouth... "Geneva convention be damned! They aren't specific enough!" DUH ofcourse not. The whole point of the statement is to make ppl atleast THINK about what they are doing by making it so undetailed they are gaurding against a GREAT deal that humans can think up by simply putting in that one important undetailed clause. Which is why it is there. So lets just hold ourselves to it and stop bitching about it already. No one should be tortured. The end. If you don't like it Mr President dictator, go pronounce yoiurself president of Syria and do what ever you want there without the us power authority and weapons. Where torture might be legal for all i know.

Ahh now he goes on about the patriot act... If that isn't a form of torture what is? Mr. President wasn't america tortured enough by 9/11 do you really have to rub salt in the wound by turning america into a dictatorship and "protecting" us all against ourselves and eachother and our own civil liberties?! Shame on you!
Let Freedom Ring! Let the White dove sing! Let the whole world know that today is a day of reckoning.
by Vivi on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:44:00 AM EDT morgaineswell.com

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Sweetie, you've said your Granny is over 65 years of age.  And that she is doggedly anti-war.  I can show you how to impeach Bush because of this.

Item:  under the Constitution, the President makes all monetary disbursements.  So when Granny receives her Social Security check, it comes with Bush's signature.

Item:  Bush has declared war on the terrorists, and (this is important) those that finance the terrorists.

Item:  Bush has said those who oppose his policies encourage the terrorists.

Item:  The Constitution allows for the impeachment of any government official who engages in treason.

Item:  The Constitution defines treason as (the following is an exact quote):

Article III, Section 3

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.

Therefore, your Granny is treasonous for encouraging the terrorists.  When Bush signs her social security check, he is financing treason against the United States. Therefore, he's a traitor.

IMPEACH THE BASTARD!

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 11:56:11 AM EDT
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Did i mention i love you?! Your logic is.... HAHAHAHA totally on the mark... What a joke this administration is. How evil too. But yup i hear you on this point... You are ofcourse totally accurate.....

The other Granny is scary. One of those nutcase christian soldier coalitionist psycho zealot fringe wackos... What i find most amusing is last time me and my fiance saw her.... (She has atleast 4 bibles in every room and both pictures of christ and atleast 3 crosses on every door an wall...) The old nutcase also has a statue of the holy virgin (Virgin my ass... Science would indicate the virgin was definately sexually active.) in her back yard....
In the last earthquake...Everything around my grands died which is a tragedy. Always sux to lose so much... Anyway, even the virgin lost and i don't mean her virginity. I mean her head. My opus dei granny has a statue of a headless virgin in her back yard. They never replaced it... Talk about a blatant message from god about well everything... Taking the head off of his mother pretty clearly tells us what he thinks of her and those who spend all their time worshipping both him and her.

Psycho granny is pro war. The old nut LOVES bush she goes to church and preys to the holy 5 the virgin jesus, god, the holy ghost, and Bush. I kid you not. She does this atleast 2 times a day except on sundays when she goes 3 times a day. Its kinda sickening...

I don't object to a little healthy belief... But she uses her belief as a reason to hate blacks to hate gays to hate everyone who is not a white christian soldier. I can't abide that kind of.... ickiness... very easily or for any real length of time. Then i tend to start firing back and over dinner there is quite a battle. I try not to really ui do.... But that kind of ignorance and hatred just piss me off...

So i was gifted on one side to have an old bitch as a granny who atleast has good politics and on the other side... Well lets put it this way... I am gonna try to go to california for november elections so that i can put something nasty in their coffee so they are asleep and miss the whole election process. People like that should not have a voice in anything. So hopefully others will take my lead and knock out their mentally defunct and ignorant before they can get to the polls.... And to vote for their "god".

But your point on social security is very cute and amusing.... Got anymore? I would LOVE to hear them.
Let Freedom Ring! Let the White dove sing! Let the whole world know that today is a day of reckoning.
by Vivi on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:23:10 PM EDT morgaineswell.com
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Whoa...for someone so upset over such radicalism as this granny exhibits...I gotta say you sound a little too radical yourself here. There is a lot of...well...fill in the blank.

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:50:59 PM EDT
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I don't think i am in the least bit redical. Lets look at some of the things the republican psycho zealot fringe nuts have done.
  1. Ohio voting machines... Enough said i think i made my point.
  2. The first "selection" of Bush (See above)
  3. The second election of Bush (See above above...)
  4. The patriot act.
  5. There is a state in which abortion is not legal.
  6. A war on both gay marriage and islam
  7. Whipping the whole nation up into a state of perpetual fear.
  8. Some preachers were moaning from their pulpits to vote Bush or go to hell.
  9. Phone calls to voting offices in excess causing ppl to not be able to vote.
  10. Florida... Do i really have to elaborate???

Compared to all this i don't consider trying to do my small part and stop the whackos in my family from voting to be in the least bit "radical" I consider it actually necesary. I wish more people would do the same thing. She isn't just a crazy because she doesn't agree with me. If she had an intelligent or half sane reasoning for disagreeing i would not get in her way on her way to place her  vote. But it is a well known fact within our family she suffers from major mental dementia. She isn't responsible enough to vote. We don't allow children to vote because they aren't responsible enough to follow the facts and to be fully informed on what goes on in the world. We consider them lesser beings and set an age limit. Well i would propose when one gets too old or clinically chemically insane that we do the same damn thing. I don't consider that in the least bit radical i am sorry if you do. I consider it doing my part to keep an old woman suffering from undiagnosed schizophrenia from getting conned by a charlatan demagog and i will not apologize for getting in her way to vote. Anf i will never feel regret over that. Nor will i feel any guilt. She is a mentally defunct old woman. I wouldn't let her write a check to a telephone pyramid scam either. Why should i allow them to take her money in a political pyramid scam? I am sorry you think i am radical. But i consider this my patriotic duty as well as my duty to a crazy old woman too old and too crazy to look out for her own self interests.
Let Freedom Ring! Let the White dove sing! Let the whole world know that today is a day of reckoning.
by Vivi on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:19:00 PM EDT morgaineswell.com
[ Parent ]
------------------------------------------------------------
Ahh..liberal hate speech, it is not constructive. Although I understand the need for catharsis, and this IS just a blog...the tone and anger with which you use words is the same reason why there are so many problems in the world to begin with. Really think you're helping, or perpetuating?

(Yes, I am an evil conservative so feel free to use that against me...imagine that)

by Shakell (shaun_kelley85@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:11:49 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know if you are just totally uninformed or if you are playing games with us, planet patriot.  Do you honestly believe that this list is complete?  Do you think this list is what has killed so many innocent detainees in our american run prisons?  Do you think this is the kind of torture that resulted in the pictures that we saw and the things that a few of the "bad apples" had to pay for by doing time?  Do you think this is what others hear from those who have survived the actions of our military in these prisons?  Do you think this is the sort of thing that has horrified even some of our own military men enough to make them flee from returning to the house of horrors in Iraq and other prisons around the world?  Hardly!  

While this list is also actions of inhumane and unacceptable behavior for one human to perform on another - it is also quite light in comparison to the unmistakeable acts of torture which no one, even the morally inept can deny are acts of torture.  With a list like this you get people like Shakell coming here to argue about whether "stress positions" can actually be considered torture.  It doesn't really portray what is so horrific that even a self claimed liberal like yourself can seem to bring themselves to discuss but until we learn to do it, then we really won't get anywhere.  This is some ridiculous attempt to soften the blow to those who are a part of this support group for such actions.  Let's look at it for what it is - shall we.

I saw pictures of young children being raped - girls who were fourteen years old and younger and I have read and listened to victims of these acts of torure and their experiences weren't stress positions or a slap on the face.  They were pictures of a man naked, feet and hands bond and a vicscious dog showing his teet in the face of this horrified victim.  While he sat in his own blood a pool of which was obviously created by the teeth of the dog in front of him - I got sick to my stomache and I felt embarrassed - I felt his fright and I tried to think how I would feel if I knew nothing at all about terrorist groups and was being held and constantly abused in this way until I told them something that I knew nothing about.  How goddamned horrific .  I read a story about another victim who was forced to watch as our soldiers raped his daughter and wife - and they were threateneing to do this everyday until he told them what they wanted to know.  I saw pictures of bloody, bruised and twisted bodies with our military personnel smiling and posing for photos next to them - they were beaten to death and then in their death continued to be humiliated.  I read about a father who was forced to watch them beat his young son (age 11) while they questioned him and each time he could not answer because he didn't know the answer they clobbered his young son.  How fucking evil and how disgusting.  I don't think we can argue that this is torture and this is wrong and this is what lists like yours leads to - when we begin to accept those "questionable" forms of torture as acceptable - then we only move further out on the limb.  

It is necessary to remind those readers when presenting such a forgiving list - planetpatriot - that these people are detainees - they are not charged with a crime - they are not known terrorist and in fact aren't even given the right to a fair trial to determine thier guilt or if they know anything we would like to know.  They asre not allowed to visit their families or they are not allowed to have any representation.  

I saw pictures of the military force feeding the ones on hunger strike - they used a tube and forced it down their throats and took that tube from one victim to the next without cleaning it or use any local anthesia or anything proper.  

How is it that you can forget these stories - how is it that you can propose a list like the one you have and condemn it as torture - when in fact it too is torture and neglect to mention the beatings, the blood baths and the rapes and violations that are so inhumane even charles mansen couldn't deny it - For in fact that is a good depiction of where our society is headed - and your list is where our society is - it is a goddamned shame when people who consider themselves people will sit around arguing that stress positions and attempting to create a drowning for someone to experience is not exactly torture - but lets get down to it and really talk about what we are talking about here.

Something very sick and inhumane has been unleashed on this country and it's populace and the more we pretend it is not there the more likely we are to get worse.  

This is where shakell comes to deny this torture ever happened.  As if he knows or something - yet he can sit there and argue what is and what is not considered torture.

Furthermore - let's remember that it has been said time and time again that torture does not work.  It has been proven over and over again that they can not use the information attained from such techniques of "interrogation"  It puts the soldiers at further risk if captured by the enemies - and it does more harm than ever has been proven that it did good.  Which is why so many victims (or survivors) have finally been released to tell their stories - torture isn't about killing - it's about keeping one alive to make them suffer - the killings are incidentals and a side effect that can be expected when using interoggation techniques such as this.

I'm sorry this is so sloppy and poorly written but I am late for work but couldn't pass up this without saying something.  It's unacceptable and if you want to talk about torture - then do so - don't paint a pretty picture cloaked in disgust when your forgot to paint the blood red and remind the world of the stories that have sickened us all so much that some can't even admit it ever happened.
"For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead." Thomas Jefferson
by lizbitchwitch (saylinbackagin@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:02:54 PM EDT

------------------------------------------------------------
. . .your druidical insight is interesting, but your polemical stance is totally uncalled for.  i merely outlined what the msm has delineated as the methods of torture under debate by the various houses and agencies of government in washington.  im on your side, really (i think).
perhaps, you missed the point in your hurry to criticize, eh?

Blog On
PLANET REVOLUTION
by planetpatriot (planetpatriot@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:27:18 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
------------------------------------------------------------
WHY so close to the November elections are Rove, Cheney, Rice and Bush so determined to change an article that has gone unquestioned in the last 60 years?....and how come I dont here more about the man who seems to be having a certain 'conscience' problem lately?....Colin Powell.........all of a sudden Colin is stepping up to the plate.......all this just reminds me of how far we have deteriorated as a society.....we're debating over how best to torture someone.......we should all be ashamed of what we have sunk to ........these men need to be removed from the office that use to have at least some dignity attached to it..........it's  a damn disgrace......and in response to what Im sure will follow in regard to what others do to our prisoners, Are we not the nation that is suppose to be the leader in the free world?..should we not be setting the example here?...again I think we have sunk to unimaginable depths.........bd
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it. Edward R. Murrow
by beachdweller on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:32:52 PM EDT
------------------------------------------------------------
Goto : http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677/

Click 'This hole in the ground' or 'Have you no sense of decency, sir?'

Reasonable to good.

:-)

by TranceAm on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 09:18:32 PM EDT
[ Parent ]


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