t r u t h o u t || WOMEN: open thread

WOMEN: open thread

By Tiny Wits

Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:20:45 AM EDT ::

Here's something that's been burning my lips for awhile but I've been too fearful of some reprisal to write it down. And, I don't wanna be BOOORRING!!

On 9/12/01, I heard the name Osama Bin Laden for the first time. I happened to be at my mother's and we had the newspaper of the day between us. We read the initial reports of this Muslim monster who had set the fires of hell upon those innocent Tower workers and turned the page.

GASP!!____ then I said, "he looks like Jesus!" My mother "yesss."

I am not of any religion but am of the Christian culture and my mother is a practicing Lutheran. So that name Jesus was the best way to communicate with her that, not only did he not look like a genocidal maniac, he radiated light.
Handsome beyond words, then over these five years, more and more is revealed; tall within his men, his huge hands moving expressively, open, fingers extended. When he walks, he floats on invisible waters. His writings are learned and logical, building his conclusion, alluding to ancient history, poetic not repetic.
Riding Arabian horses, his face bright with a child's excitement; even his facial expressions evolve as he turns his head and looks upward...after his eyebrow rise so slightly. His eyes too, like a fine horses, conveying all while saying naught.
Then finally after many rough translations drown him out, I hear his voice, he's speaking, and this giant, fierce warrior, leader of fighters, conveys to his listeners much more than words. The grace and subtlety and quiet rushing sounds of a language that can sound so rough drips from his tongue and lips near motionless, bring
a sense of being contained, embraced, swaddled in care and history and "is-ness."

OK, OK, he is the generally appointed titular enemy and if I were to aid or comfort him it would be treason. But these words surely cannot be treasonous. It's just true: he's glorious, and he must already know that. And he won't be reading this anyway!

And frankly, given that my leader is clearly willing to kill civilians too, and lots of 'em, is also a religious extremist and comes from a priviledged background, well, I wish he were as dignified, as eloquent, as charasmatic, as inherently desiring to reach his people, to teach his people as the enemy leader is.

That Bush fought and lived with his soldiers not just dressed like 'em. That he had had more education and less liquor during all those years at the best schools, that he spoke like bubbles in a brook rather than a repeating rifle. That he didn't squint and avoid eye contact while his words have no grammar at all. That his hands are stubby fists for pounding podiums.

And that he had wisemen advising him, at his side, rather than manipulators even more masterful than he, men on the edge of many crimes.

and that he had an aura of knowing what honor is and valuing it.
Or even just polite.

WOMEN: open thread

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Charisma

What an admission!! You are a brave soul.

Osama is charismatic. If you are fascinated by him, well, just imagine how strong the allure is for people from his "culture" who understand his words without a translator! And his message appeals to those who are frustrated to the core by Western "domination" and the failures of their own governments.

There are many parallels between Osama (as public figure) and the Prophet Muhammed which add to his "charisma". The Prophet Muhammed was born into the most noble Arabian tribe/family, the Qureish. Though he was orphaned and not personally wealthy, the Prophet married the richest woman (and one of the richest Arabians of any gender) of the time. Though he had access to great riches, he always lived a humble, ascetic life. The Prophet was as comfortable in the desert as in the city, rode horses, fought bravely, etc. Osama's role in the Afghan war against Russia was, in the eyes of Muslims and many non-Muslims, an honorable committment to protect fellow Muslims from the infidel. . .

But Osama mixes great hate and un-Islamic (in my opinion anyway) messages with legitimate "truths". He is all the more dangerous because of that. And it is the "poison" mixed with honey in his words and deeds that repels me.

There is much beauty in Islam. To hear the Quaran recited by someone who truly believes can be incredibly beautiful and moving. The comfort in sitting in the company of someone who shines with a calmness/peace/light that can come from true devotion to a higher power/Allah? and the attraction one feels is amazing. When I watch Osama, and listen to his message, and his hatred of you and me (because we are not Muslims -- and I do not believe the Prophet Muhammed hated non-Muslims because to him all humans were Allah's creation and potential converts), I am repulsed. I find Osama's looks and mannerisms "gross".

Osama perverts something lovely. And that makes me angry. His perversion of a religion of PEACE is his biggest crime in my book.
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Ghandi
by earthymom on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 05:41:35 AM EDT

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hmm

I find that Osama does have a deep charisma to him. You know, for the last 5 years I have often thought to myself that I can understand where he is coming from, giving our middle east policies over the last several decades. The middle east was a pawn in the cold war, and we were happy to exploit that fact (as was Russia). Here is a man who has seen the plights of his people for all of his life, and feels compeled to do something about it. That in itself is very appealing to me personally, in any person. I truly respect where he is coming from, though I do not condone his methods. I think his methods are born of desperation and years of building anger into hatred.
The comparison between him and Bush is interesting. Imagine, for a moment you are from neither the middle east or the United States & its allies. Who would you be more drawn to? Who's cause would you be more apt to believe in?
and why?

by Torva on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 07:35:43 AM EDT

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The perfect question.

____"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death." Harold Wilson
by Tiny Wits (TimeBean@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:22:10 AM EDT http://ForMoronIssues.blogspot.com
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both are disgusting...

Bush a simpleton and a dangerous fool, Osama, well what can I say: he believes that the way to accomplish his goals is to kill civilians. What else is there to say? Both are disgusting people.

by sarao on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:29:50 AM EDT
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Can't disagree there

by Torva on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 07:05:59 AM EDT
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Each man in his place

I keep my eye on 'false prophets'.... John Kennedy had this same light ... (never noticed it in osama but you know what I avoid him?!?!? So I'll take you guys' word on it) and JFK and JFK, JR and mama got shot down (yeah, cancer my ass) ... anyway ..... we couldn't protect JFK's and Martins but we can't find some ninety foot tall guy with a bedpan and a kidney machine and how frickin many relatives??? (vivi is rubbing off on me .....)

I wish everyone here would make a webpage with his picture on it and in every language conceivable put, THOU SHALL NOT PUT FALSE GODS BEFORE ME.

Tiny wits, you're deeper than a well.....
Risk! Risk anything! Care no more for the opinions of others, for those voices. Do the hardest thing on earth for you. Act for yourself. Face the truth.
by eyeswideopen (fairy_taletrash@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:01:24 PM EDT http://www.usalone.com/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?pnum=302

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And a picture of W right next to it.

"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you have to concentrate on." George W. Bush
by YUCA (msealesk@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:09:42 PM EDT
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Sorry Off Topic but ummm I need help....

I need help... From other women... Preferably ones older with more experience with life love and men than i have. Well i just packed up and moved to canada to be with the one i love... And i am finding domestic politics to be ummm... Unsatisfactory... I love him. I don't want to trade him in... I just want him to pick up his own damn dishes and oh maybe wash one once in a while?! I don't work. But i am a student again which means i am rather busy. I understand he works full time and i want to be supportive of that. Not everyone can produce their share of the financial support for a household without lifting a finger. I am perfectly aware that i am in a rather lucky unique situation as far as that goes. Since we moved in together my day has been nothing but picking up after him. Cleaning his dishes making our bed... I am the dish washing machine and the vaccume cleaner the dog walker... All i ask of him is to take out the damn trash once a day. Well, i ask and i take it out myself every day... How does one fix such a situation? I know my mother had these same problems but i have spent so much time telling her what a good one he is nothing like my father that to go to her would just be... humiliating... I know i am home all day he isn't. I don't even mind taking responsibility for most of this stuff. But i am also a student. I want to be able to study too and not just pick up after him. Its bad enough having to clean after the ummm "kids" all the time. (we have 4 pets that live to make a mess) I don't need another "child". I thought i was getting a partner. I contribute my half financially to the house too... I know i don't have to do anything to do that still i do cover that i study and i take full responsibility for the yard work and the whole house too?! I feel ... Like his mother... He is older than i am... This simply isnt right and i dont want my education to suffer because of this. I am not looking for an out altogether or even for the most part... But a little help around here... How does a woman deal with these things without having a mega bitch fest like my mum used to have daily and they never did any good anyway... So what do i do?

I think part of the reason politics are as they are in this country starts in the home. We take so much shit from our mnen in our own houses that when it comes to parties and presidents etc we are happy to take their crap to since we take it from our own men anyway... Whats a bit more? I think a large part of fixing society has to start in the home with a realistic fair division of labor. He comes home sits on his ass watching tv while i cook dinner then i wash the dishes... then i come sit with him for a while .... then i make him a small snack which he leaves all over the coffee table with i clean up... Then in the morning upon waking up first thing i see is a cereal bowl on the table. The one meal i am not expected to make. And he is gone off to work. And i get to clean up his clothes from the bathroom floor from his shower etc... And i get to clean up after the pets and vaccume and wash things down and fluff the pillows bla bla bla... And then maybe i get to study an hour or 2 before he gets home if there are no errands i need to run... Or the lawn and garden don't need me. And all i ask is simply take out the god damn trash! my back is literally broken. I had it exrayed at the hospital shortly after the move fracture of the fifth lumbar... And he does nothing but sit on his ass... While my studies get worse and worse because i am too busy picking up his stuff... How do women deal with this bullshit??? Please someone help me? I am in canada i have like no one around me to ask... I don't know anyone here... Can't cry to family told them how great he is and he is sweet and nice and i love him but he needs to do his part a bit too. So how do i make this happen?
Let Freedom Ring! Let the White dove sing! Let the whole world know that today is a day of reckoning.
by Vivi on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 01:19:38 PM EDT morgaineswell.com

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trash

just learn to like it... it's not MANLY enough for them................ or somethin..... I always figured that's auto a guy job but it doesn't seem to pan out. sorry not much time gotta go buy stuff going to DC !!!!! Leave him and hop on the bus and join us !!!!!! (just long enough til he picks up his own plates)
Risk! Risk anything! Care no more for the opinions of others, for those voices. Do the hardest thing on earth for you. Act for yourself. Face the truth.
by eyeswideopen (fairy_taletrash@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 02:58:10 PM EDT http://www.usalone.com/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?pnum=302
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Been there, done that. . .

Vivi dear,
Take a deep breath. Go for a long walk, meditate, put things in perspective. You just moved to a foreign country -- that is enough to throw you off kilter. Take another deep breath.

Look in the mirror and tell yourself that you are VIVI. You are NOT your mother. You are not your father. You are not your fiance's mother. You need not prove that to anyone.

Now, prioritize and "let go" of what won't kill you. Pick one part of your home that is important to keep clean for YOUR sake. Let the rest go. If he leaves his cereal bowl on the table, tell yourself that he was in a hurry and he'll wash it when he gets home. If he leaves his clothes on the bathroom floor, kick them out of your way but tell yourself he'll get around to picking them up. (He will). If he doesn't, ignore it.

It is not your responsibility to tidy up after him and make him blind to his own messes (unless you make it your responsibility). It also not your responsibility to point his messes out to him -- presumeably he has eyes. Your worth as a woman is not contingent on how clean your house is or how well you pamper your man like a small child incapable of picking up after himself.

Vivi, you are a very social being and you've just moved far away from everyone you know. Many things will seem emotionally bigger than they are for a while = 1st stage of "home sickness". Give yourself a break. Do NOT pick a fight with you man. If he comments that you didn't pick up after him (you'd think he'd be embarrassed to do so) CALMLY say that you're not a maid and that even children put their own clothes in the clothes hamper and their dishes in the sink, etc.

Now, take another deep breath.

"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -- Mahatma Ghandi
by earthymom on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 03:50:28 PM EDT
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I feel your pain Vivi!

I know it will seem mentally impossible, but learn to ignore the mess. I used to put a hamper in the bathroom, but he had a specific place in the bedroom where he liked taking his clothes off, so I moved the hamper to that spot. Guess what? He would throw the clothes toward the hamper and miss. And it didn't matter if I positioned it in all 360 angles, he'd still miss. It's been 14 years, 2 kids and a dog now.

This will be an emotional roller-coaster, but that's what marriage is. Soon you will learn little tricks to make him do what you want him to do without moving your mouth. Trust me... You will. Meantime, just learn to prioritize. School comes first, and that's all there is to it. And always keep in mind (like I know you do) that it is respect, goodness and loyalty what count most in a relationship for keeps.

I just hope he's not a Republican;)
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you have to concentrate on." George W. Bush
by YUCA (msealesk@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:56:18 PM EDT
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I think it's easier to

just do it yourself, if it's something you care about more, than getting involved in an uphill struggle. But make it a tradeoff: he does something always that you don't do... In our home my husband tried to keep things neat, but it could never be to my standard, so I'm the main cleaner/neatener. But, he takes care of the kids in the morning, because I'm no good if I don't get enuf sleep, and lately he's been doing the laundry, which I hate. So, seems like an even enough trade....

by sarao on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:17:49 AM EDT
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Can't be off topic...it's OPEN

____"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death." Harold Wilson
by Tiny Wits (TimeBean@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:23:56 AM EDT http://ForMoronIssues.blogspot.com
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who are you talking too?

by sarao on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:26:57 AM EDT
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Vivi

I failed to enter my heartfelt reply to your reply. The post "Don't Do It!" is to you. three or so after this.
____"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death." Harold Wilson
by Tiny Wits (TimeBean@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:26:38 AM EDT http://ForMoronIssues.blogspot.com
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if you've only just moved in with him, set the

right 'rules' from the start. They're not really rules, just clearly articulated ideas about how you both need to be in order to last together, to take off the petty pressures of who does what chore in the household. If you are clear with him and he doesn't do something, repeatedly, treat him with the same disrespect he's been treating you with, by not doing his share of the housework. Wash your own clothes, leave his shirts in the hamper, etc. This is either stuff you bring to a head immediately, at the start, or you do all the work yourself and learn to not resent him for it. You can't change the rules later on. IMO.
'cuts to education budgets can be as effective as the nocturnal visits of secret police' - Dorothy Green
by ravenqueen (sanityispainful@hotmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:11:13 AM EDT
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it makes me laugh to read this now.

Don't take advice from a commitment-phobic agony aunt like me. To me, if i'm honest, rules in love are boring, rules should be changed every day. The truth is, there are no rules in a relationship, and if there are, it's because the two people aren't communicating, or paying enough attention to each other's signals and needs. This is usually because there isn't enough love in the relationship, i think. Your man sounds selfish, and if i was you, I'd leave. But don't do what i'd do. I enjoy being single, although i know from experience that being deeply in love is much better, when the guy loves you back as much or more. It's a precious thing, not easy to come by, and that's why it's so precious. Goodluck, V. I wish you happiness.
'cuts to education budgets can be as effective as the nocturnal visits of secret police' - Dorothy Green
by ravenqueen (sanityispainful@hotmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 08:50:18 PM EDT
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I don't know how many couples

I know who wind up having roommate problems. I think the big problems have to do with alcoholism, physical abuse, neglecting the children, gambling, cheating, dishonesty, etc. I think if your man is kind, reliable, generous, all that, you're ahead of the game, and you have to find your way around the roommate problems. If you've got some guys who hurts you, demeans you, abandons you, that you can't count on, all that, then fly. Otherwise, find a way to make your peace, and if it means you do a littlemore housework, forget it. No big deal...

by sarao on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 08:56:56 PM EDT
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I Am Not The Woman You Asked For Advice

and, as a man I can probqbly offer you none relevant to solving your current problems. But, let me assure you, being a man, even just a, or particularly because I am, you have a problem! And, the longer you wait to iron it out, the bigger, harder, more costly and painful it will be to resolve.

You have some choices to make, Vivi, some of them, probably most of them, will be painful and costly, but MAKE THEM NOW. Do not wait until it is too late, and the cost and the pain become unbearable. You are young, don't throw away your youth on a life which is not conducive to living.

One of the greatest fallacies of Youth in Love, is being in Love with the Dream of Love.

Sort it out. Sort him out. Sort yourelf out.

And, Good Luck! You deserve the best... it is up to you to see that you get it, not your Fairy Godmother, or whomever.

by sirius99 (Aiman) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:36:37 AM EDT
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All the wonderful advice in the world

Vivi, won't match up to YOU TALKING TO YOUR FIANCE -- about this, about whatever. Communicate. As Sirius says, NOW. Don't start playing games, they will only bite you in the ass later on.
"Live Simply ... that others may Simply Live."
by Irie on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:01:37 AM EDT
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I second that!

Vivi,
I put up with similar situation, a lot of guys naturally assume that you will pick up after them, just like mommy did. So, sit down and let him know its not happening. You don't have to fight about it, but be firm, hold your ground, and if he still doesn't pick up after himself, or do his own dishes/laundry/etc, it is not up to you to do so. I bet if he runs out of clean socks, he will be doing his laundry. You can also do what i've done in this situation: take one side of the sink for his dishes and leave them there. You can let him know you are doing that. If he doesn't like that, then you may have a larger problem between your expectations and his. I urge communication through all problems.
Love is grand. Divorce: 5 Grand. :)~

by Torva on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:14:17 AM EDT
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Actually i have been thinking about that alot

And wondering... And the more i think about it... The more i know exactly why i am here. Aside from this single issue of cleaning.... I am the happiest i have ever been in my life. Because he is sweet caring.... Kind... Who else would get up at 5:30 am to drive me to the hospital when the 15 advil haven't helped all night and i am in agony and certain i have done major damage to my back? Who would sit with me there for hours? Who would put up with me on pain pills half drooling when it turns out the fifth lumbar is broken, for a week.He is a good guy. He hangs the pictures and the coat racks... He walks the dog every now and again but that is only cuz she worships him. He also works all day. We aren't even married yet... No date has been set, acording to him, his money is our money. And he wants me to spend it as i choose. Which is very new and scary to me.... My dad was a miser... I worked all through my teens and payed him rent... for my own bedroom... Sooo Antti wants to take care of me and i want to take care of him... We have something that goes so far beyond just stupid cleaning issues money matters and physical pain... I want to be here i want to be with him... He makes me happy except for this one issue which is making me annoyed.

I am home all day. I really am not opposed to doing most of it. I would apreciate it especially right now though if he could do anything needing lifting as my back is literally broken and just moving is painful. I still can't believe it.... I broke my back... WHo in their 29s breaks their back? Isn't that an injury for old people... errr sorry older people. I have communicated all this to him. a couple of times, And this morning i woke up to find the cereal bowl in the sink. (cheer of joy and rapture) Next issue to work on... The toilet seat.... I don't like waking up at night to pee and going to the bathroom all groggy just to find my ass falling into ice coold toilet bowl. How does one train them to put the sweat back DOWN? Do i need biscuits or something??? Like i did with the dog... But seriously the toilet being put down is a beautiful thing. How do i get him to put it that way?

Anyway, i am sure it is only fixed for a day or 2 but atleast it shows he is trying to remember and to be respectful of the fact i work in the home and i am not his mommy. So for the moment i will enjoy my success. Thank you all for all your help i will have to employ some of the tactics spoken of when next it becomes an issue in like a day or 2 probably.... I don't know what i would have ended up doing or screaming at him without all your help and wise words of experience. I hope if the future holds more issues since going to mum isn't possible (She thinks he walks on water and wants to marry him herself...) That you will all be as supportive and helpful with those issues as well. And if there is anything i can help any of you with... Please feel free to let me know. Thanx again. And sorry for borrowing this thread to solve my personal problem i am just far from home and didn't know what else to do. Thank you tinywits for the open thread comment i do feel bad taking people away from the original subject matter sooo now back to the subject matter and once again thanx.
Let Freedom Ring! Let the White dove sing! Let the whole world know that today is a day of reckoning.
by Vivi on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:33:42 AM EDT morgaineswell.com
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A woman's lament

Vivi, this is the most interesting thing you've ever written on TO. These are issues most women are familiar with, as evidenced by all the responses you got. Almost all of us have been there!

If you love your fiance and want to make a life with him, you'll have to get strong enough to talk straight to him without uncertainty or bitterness. You also have to know what you want out of life, and learn to take yourself seriously. If you take yourself seriously, he will have to do so too.

Are you serious about your studies? If so, pencil them in on your calendar each day as the one thing that simply must get done. Your sweetie didn't get his PhD by being somebody else's personal servant, and you won't achieve anything meaningful that way either. No amount of backpedaling on your anger, or counting the things you love about him, will change that. Don't be afraid of your anger, or blame him for it. Just regard it as a sign that you're not getting what you need, and take measures to set that right. No relationship can last where somebody isn't getting what they need----and it can only end badly somewhere down the road. That would be such a shame----needless heartache and wasted years of both your lives.

Figure out how many hours you need per day for studying, and how many for your own personal care, errands etc. The rest, which may come out to 2 hours or so, can be devoted to reasonable chores that benefit both of you----such as washing breakfast dishes, making the bed, caring for the pets, and cooking dinner. Tell him that's all you're doing, period. It's entirely reasonable that your beloved pick up after himself and wash the dishes after dinner (with your pleasant company of course), and that he share in the yard work on the weekends. After all, if he didn't have you, he'd have to do all that stuff by himself. He's lucky to have you to make his life easier, and he should wise up to that. And if he doesn't start being an equal partner, he WILL find himself alone. If the two of you are ever going to be a team, now is the time to figure out how to do that. You'll want any children who come along to see their father respect their mother and act like an adult----because why would children pick up their things if their father won't pick up his? Why should they respect their mother if he doesn't? And I don't just mean love, I mean respect.

(A word of advice: the ones your friends and mother believe can walk on water are the very worst----because they treat these other women better than they treat you. You're the only one who knows how they act at home, and that leaves you isolated and misunderstood by others. But others can't fight your battles for you anyway. Only you can do that.)

Be loving but firm. Look in the mirror and say, "This is what I need and deserve because I am a good woman and you are lucky to have me." Then say it to him, confidently and without rancor. You don't want to look at his mess all day long on the floor and in the kitchen. You deserve a civilized, tidy household so you can think straight, and you don't want to be his personal slave to get it that way either. If he disrespects your needs and your feelings, he disrespects you. Don't accept any excuses about how he "forgot" or it was "just my socks, big deal". Tell him----calmly, and with love----that he isn't taking you seriously and that you will be respected or else the deal is off. Because you may love him, but that doesn't mean you'll allow him to take you for granted. And don't let him disparage the importance of your studies either, or the time needed to pursue them. If his work and studies are important, so are yours.

If your sweetie finds picking up after himself and helping around the house simply intolerable, the two of you could consider hiring somebody to do the chores so as to relieve you both. But really, this is about the two of you growing up together----him becoming an adult man who takes responsibility for his own messes and learns to consider somebody else's feelings----and you becoming an adult woman who knows what she wants and takes positive steps to make that happen rather than passively accepting what she's given and then stewing on her disappointments. Don't wimp out Vivi. You can do it.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:08:04 PM EDT
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Thank you Cassandra

And again thanx to the rest of you too. I don't know what i would do without you all. Again i am really starting to see how politics start in the home. I always wondered before if that was some kinda myth. Its definately quite real.

My fiance is really very good to me... He even makes an effort when i tell him i need an effort. This morning i woke up... How bowl was in the sink! Doth my eyes deceive me?! No he really carried his dish to the sink. I was thrilled. How sweet of him to put it atleast where i didn't have to go out of my way to get it so i could deal with it while simply dealing with everything else. I am all for taking care of him and i know he wants to take care of me too. I do see him try. He works all day which i think might count for more if i actually needed the money he brings in... All the same i respect he tries to give us a good life and i am glad he works. A man sittin around on his arse is no place for a man. Especially an educated man. No place for a woman either though. Again i think it should be a partnership. I do most of the in the home stuff he does most of the out of the home stuff i still do the grocery shopping and errand running he can do a few things in the home now and then. And hopefully as time goes by i will train him properly. He really is a good one very well intentioned.

I will try your suggestion about scheduling study time as it is very important to me. If it takes me 6 years i don't care i am working towards something i really don't need it in the shortest time possible. However it is a major priority as i would like to do it and get that degree anyway as soon as i can possibly get it not necesarily as soon as it is possible to get. He worked looong and hard to get that PHD and he knows it. I have always been wsupportive of his studies. I wouldn't mind if he wanted to go back to school and start over from scratch in a different subject and get his PHD a second time... So long as he does something responsible with his time. I also wouldn't mind paying for him to do that and covering our expenses while he does. But he is ready to work and finally finished with school so i am happy for him. Now it is my turn a bit. I am in the home all day i can do most of this stuff still.... He can help me out a bit so i can study. And i do tell him that. Quite often. I don't tend to yell and scream like my mother often. Once in a while.... I save it... for special occasions when shock value will help.

But thank you all so much for the suggestions i am sure too i might have more questions and need for a bit of guidance down the road.... He is sweet and wonderful and treats me very well which is why my mother thinks he walks on water... Has little to do with how he treats her... He is nice to her too though... Still, no one and nothing is perfect and when crap rears its ugly head mum thinks he is Jesus... Can't talk to her... Sooo I will likely in time have more to ask about as i have never shared a bedroom and an apartment with a man art the same time. This is all a bit new... I mean i have lived in houses with several men atr a time at verious points but the relationship... was a very different one not intended to last till we both croak of old age and such... Sooo different thing entirely. This particular sort of relationship living together is new. I am glad there are people who have been here already.
Let Freedom Ring! Let the White dove sing! Let the whole world know that today is a day of reckoning.
by Vivi on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:52:29 PM EDT morgaineswell.com
[ Parent ]

: ------------------------------------------------------------

I'm sure he is a wonderful man

and it sounds like he loves you and you love him back, which is a very good thing.
Even so, do not deny or suppress your frustration for his sake. If you have a problem, he has a problem also. The two of you will encounter many, many problems as you go through the years. It's not the number of problems but your shared ability to address them promptly, talk about them in a friendly manner, and come up with solutions to satisfy both, that will determine whether your relationship will make it in the long term. Do not underestimate the importance of this Vivi. Don't over-rely on patience and forgiveness when you just plain don't like what's going on and you're not happy. You can nourish your relationship by asserting your needs and helping your sweetie to know you better. I'm sure he wants you to be happy---he just needs some help understanding what you need. You may have to put your foot down on occasion---as nicely as you can manage---so he'll understand you really mean it. And when he's good to you, be sure to tell him he's the best man in the world.
PS Yelling doesn't accomplish anything good. Don't yell. Just tell him what you need, and see that he takes it seriously. (The cereal bowl is a good start.)

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:52:34 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Vivi,

That's quite a predicament you've described. Almost sounds like my situation 40 or so years ago, only I didn't move away from friends and family to another country.
My mistake was becomming pregnant and marrying the slob! Needless to say, the relationship went down hill from there.
For your own sake, be VERY careful. Practice the best birth control availible. DON'T become pregnant, not with him.
I believe you're in love with being in love. Love has to be both ways; not just you loving him.
If this man (momma's boy) really loved you, he wouldn't be making your life miserable. He'd WANT to make you happy by sharing household responsibilities.
You can do one of two things: you and he can get some counseling and hope he improves or leave the slob and find a REAL partner who's mature and responsible. They ARE out there!

by Rosesxx on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:47:24 AM EDT
[ Parent ]

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Women

I have never understood women.

by TJ on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 09:53:47 PM EDT

------------------------------------------------------------

What's not to understand???

LOL! It's so simple. Help me help us.
And if men were as pragmatic as they like to think they are, they'd listen the first time around and save themselves a lot of grief.

Face it! We always win in the end;)
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you have to concentrate on." George W. Bush
by YUCA (msealesk@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:39:45 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Are you meaning to indicate

that you have understood pretty much everything else?
Have you understood men?

____"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death." Harold Wilson
by Tiny Wits (TimeBean@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:51:12 AM EDT http://ForMoronIssues.blogspot.com
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Oh dear, here we go.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:09:06 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Understandin' women?

Hell, I don't understand men, and I am one.

I think I am close to getting dogs figured out, though.

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:12:21 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Dogs rock...

I have one... It likes to bite people. I have this sacred long cherished wish to introduce the bitch to Rumsfeld... Hey Rumsfeld pat the little tiny 5 pound pint size mini mutt! Oooh my Rumsfeld, I am SOoooo sorry i hope losing your right hand didn't hurt you too much... Now what will you use when you masturbate as i am sure your wife won't touch you?! Ok i lied... I'm not sorry. I am giving the damn dog a medal for service to it's nation.

hahaha... I understand dogs... I understand men somewhat a little bit.... But hardly in the complete sense. They still baffle me in many ways. Women i do however understand just fine. There is a simple rule about women, Don't piss us off you will be just fine. See? Easy enough...
Let Freedom Ring! Let the White dove sing! Let the whole world know that today is a day of reckoning.
by Vivi on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:23:13 PM EDT morgaineswell.com
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

If my ex-wife is a good example of woman

Just breathing will piss a woman off. Of course, she was a red-head, which I have been led to believe is the most virulent form of womanhood.

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:52:49 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Oh we're not going there...but...ahhh....

No More Redheads!! Wot?!?!
Oft Evil Will Shall Evil Mar - Theoden
by Not An American (naa-truthout@hotmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:19:07 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

shurrup! My hair borders on red....

Irish gypsy blood and all kind of a weird reddish brownish... bla...
Let Freedom Ring! Let the White dove sing! Let the whole world know that today is a day of reckoning.
by Vivi on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 07:49:54 PM EDT morgaineswell.com
[ Parent ]

: ------------------------------------------------------------

Dear, you will be happy to know

That in fact my ex's hair was dark brown. I was making a redhead joke - you know, all blondes are dumb, all redheads are fiery natured, etc.
My mother's hair was red, my daughter was born a red head and later turned brown, in her teens. I know better than to believe a word of those old jokes. I was having one of those "viva la differance" moments.
Is that a picture of you on the "Stories" page at Morgaineswell dot com? If so, I must say you are quite lovely.

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 08:12:50 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

I like your sense of humor TF.

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:30:17 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

: ------------------------------------------------------------

If we can't laugh at ourselves

Why bother living?
Thanks, sweetie. Got the doghouse cleaned out yet?

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:48:37 PM EDT
[ Parent ]
: ------------------------------------------------------------

Didja see

my comment "If you need a reason to impeach" in Planet patriots diary "Torture is torture?" You may find it amusing.

by tomsfork (tomsfork@comcast.net) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 10:28:14 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm interested in this comment of yours TJ.

Do you really mean it? Do you really find women baffling?

What is it about us exactly that puzzles you? I'm not being sarcastic or anything I swear, I really want to know---because I've heard this comment a lot.

What do you think of that whole Mars & Venus thing?

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:28:36 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

<click> Door opens....slam

woah! Sudden stop...look around....slowly slide to the door, hoping to not be seen...<creak> Door opens....<click>...

Whew...close call there...lucky I got out before saying something stupid! Thank heavens for the old sketch on "The Art of Not Being Seen"
Oft Evil Will Shall Evil Mar - Theoden
by Not An American (naa-truthout@hotmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 06:18:11 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

: ------------------------------------------------------------

Shush NAA,

you'll frighten him off...

Cassandra
by Cassandra on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 08:36:07 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

I'm glad you found the fortitude to speak about it

I also had the same sentiments. He does look like Jesus, and he does have glowing good looks to him, with very gentile manerisms that speak volumes.

I haven't read all of the transcripts of his speaches, but the people who have talked about him, say that he wasn't always so fanatic. It's hard to know what's going on in the minds of these people who are attempting to bring about a change, no matter the cost.

I always point out that radical people are usually the ones to get the ball rolling when there truly is a need. As much as we may disagree with his tactics, we better listen to what he says, and learn from it.

We better make more of an effort to learn about the way our policies affect other people in other countries. And here too. And more than anything, we better make sure that the rest of the country does not continue to have their heads stuck in the sand, or we will be in for another 9-11. We are all complicit, and IMHO, that is Bin Laden's main message.

"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you have to concentrate on." George W. Bush
by YUCA (msealesk@yahoo.com) on Thu Sep 14th, 2006 at 10:33:40 PM EDT

------------------------------------------------------------

It may get easier to understand the radical

since it may be that we are slipping into the same position of being exploited for our resources (brilliant products of skillful manufacturing) and having them outsourced.

I think the Arab complaint is that since the discovery of fabulous wealth beneath their sands, the "owners" have slid further and further into poverty and the "customers" have flourished.

The Arab monarchy is only on its third king and who's his best friend? His father's best friend?
And would we enjoy having another country's air base in our country? We won't stand for their even administering our ports!

Muslims tend to be poor, powerless and "don't get no respect" or participatory government due to the US control of everything from under the ground up to keep our economy enlarging. In a way, I think they do "hate us for our freedom;" the freedoms built on their futures.
____"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death." Harold Wilson
by Tiny Wits (TimeBean@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:04:20 AM EDT http://ForMoronIssues.blogspot.com
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

AND!

we Westerners (read Christians) have been trying to kill them all for almost 2000 years (Crusades)

When we live and work there, it's in "Green Zones" segregating ourselves. When we hire them and teach them to read, it's "off/on" or "push/pull". We've carved up their provinces and squished together new states out of them so many times it's a quagmire.

Oh, yes. Then we pitch an armed camp in their midst, their Holy Land, in an outrageous use of a theological text as a basis of an invading/occupying foreign policy.

Of course Osama's methods are barbaric "As long as we are not secure, you will not be secure." But what is more barbaric than carpet bombing an entire huge city, killing tens of thousands of women and children, to liberate them from Saddam? Flattening Fallujah TWICE and not allowing its people back even now!
Who is and in whose name is, the most murderous of the masses?
____"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death." Harold Wilson
by Tiny Wits (TimeBean@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:18:14 AM EDT http://ForMoronIssues.blogspot.com
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

both sides wrong....

Just because you disapprove of Western policies (as do I) does not mean fudamentalist Islam and the various terrorist groups aren't disgusting too. And don't forget, Christians killed Jews and Muslims in the Crusades, but Islam pushed its way into Europe and all around via aggression. No side has cornered the market of goodness or badness. Too much black and whiteness here on TO.

by sarao on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:25:45 AM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

There is no one here that likes terrorist tactics

I think you misunderstand her point. Terrorism, whether you like it or not has its purpose. And no one has to corner the market on "goodness or badness". We have to concentrate on what WE are doing wrong. We need to look at ourselves first, and own up to our responsibilities and misdeeds in the world. Other countries will have to own up to their own mistakes and issues.

The fact that the Arabs were once expansionists doesn't mean that we get to continue invading their resources and their economies in the 21st century.

No "black or whiteness" on TO. We leave that to the Republicans.
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you have to concentrate on." George W. Bush
by YUCA (msealesk@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:23:18 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

: ------------------------------------------------------------

sadly, I've come to

see that the folks on TO are very capable of being just as black and white as the republicans...

by sarao on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:41:07 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Very well said..

And our complicity lies within our ignorance, and carelessness. We are not only citizens of the US, but also of the world. And the world's deserts have lost all of their space for hiding heads. The American people need to stop inadvertently supporting the foreign policies of our government. The message couldn't be more clear in my mind.

Osama used to concentrate on attacking military and government sites. Now, civilians are also targets. You know, I'm not so convinced that he is as crazy as they make him out to be. Fear works. But now we are being bombarded from both sides. Funny how our government uses the same tactics.

As we all know in this group, terrorism didn't start in the US with the Clinton administration, but tons of Americans now believe that it did.

I'm sorry, but that in itself is scary to me.

Haha If you listen to what the Cubans say about terrorism, is that the US: invented, perfected, patented, rented, and sold it many times over.

If people don't start getting it, we'll be targets of terrorists for decades to come.

On the up-side, I guess, with the way things are going for our world's environment, we'll soon have many more desecated land areas to go stick more heads in and hide from the tewowists.
"You can fool some of the people all the time, and those are the ones you have to concentrate on." George W. Bush
by YUCA (msealesk@yahoo.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 12:46:30 PM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Don't Do It! No matter what!

I appreciate your culture shock, but there's nothing like finding out that your beloved will try to make a servant of you the instant you share a roof.

My first co-habitor said he wanted to have things "neat." I said fine, if you want neat, make it neat 'cuz I don't care. And that's how it went down for the next 4 years. Extreme? Yes, and I wouldn't repeat it but it's historically representative of women awakening to how they'd come to bear all these responsibilities.

In your relatively new situation, you can open "negotiations" without seeming to recant a previous position/committment. You need to tell him and then you have to stick to it no matter what, 'cuz every backslide/exception you make to this "kid in him" will take 10 times longer to reset. (Am I right, moms?)

" Darling, I've come to realize that we are starting to fall into an ancient pattern in which it is assumed that the woman cleans up after the man.
Yes, I know, I'm not working a job but I am a student and I choose to spend my work energy on my studies since I pay my rent. I know, it may seem unfair, but if I had to work 2 jobs to keep up my end, I wouldn't be cleaning up after you either.
Whatever. Maybe it seems like nothing to you but I'm starting to feel resentful, and I don't want to feel that about us. And I don't want to revert to a '50's housewife either. SO,
I'm not doing anymore stuff that feels like I'm being your Mom; I don't want to wreck our sex for one thing (the incest taboo?). Yes, I feel like a mom trailing after you, compensating for what you so casually leave undone.
We hopefully will evolve into a partnership in doing the mundane chores in a spirit of helping US and our life together. But, no more will I bear the load of the eating and cleaning and provisioning to this extent. I don't enjoy those tasks anymore than you do. No, I don't want to get into examples! If you don't know what I'm talking about, maybe this new policy will enlighten you.
As more is revealed? We'll talk and adapt. The options are limitless!!"
____"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death." Harold Wilson
by Tiny Wits (TimeBean@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 01:48:00 AM EDT http://ForMoronIssues.blogspot.com

------------------------------------------------------------

Well for me,

he can never clean or neaten the way I want, but I really appreciate not having to get up in the morning. Basically, what I've noticed with my friends, particularly the ones with kids, is that it has to feel fair. Otherwise, someone is getting angry, and usually it's the woman.... Most men never understand how much work goes into taking care of kids and keeping the house clean...

by sarao on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:34:13 AM EDT

: ------------------------------------------------------------

reciprocity is the word.....

And sadly, I've noticed, alot of women resent it if they make more money than their man....

by sarao on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 02:37:21 AM EDT
[ Parent ]

------------------------------------------------------------

Goodbye to Gov Ann Richards

defeated by Karl Rove's gay whisper campaign, putting Bush on the map.

She also had a quick and sharp wit: "Poor George, he can't help it. He was born with a silver foot in his mouth."

"It's too bad they removed the 'creche' from the capitol; there goes our one chance to have three wise men in there."

Weathered skin, pure white hair, bright red lips, she was a bombshell! And she was loved and respected.

And she ran a really big state, really well so women especially can be inspired.
____"Courage is the art of being the only one who knows you're scared to death." Harold Wilson
by Tiny Wits (TimeBean@gmail.com) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 03:50:22 AM EDT http://ForMoronIssues.blogspot.com

------------------------------------------------------------

Two Men, One Who Claims To Be Close To, Even

on personal terms with God, and one who simply looks as if he were close to God.

I think the former knows not of which he speaks. An empty soul, filled with shit!

The latter? I dunno, I have never met him, nor any who have met him or spoken with him, and he has never said....

But, that is the way it is with most men and women whom I have known who were, indeed, filled with the Divine Spirit, or who knew God, rather than those who simply just "knew of" or "about" Him.

by sirius99 (Aiman) on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 04:50:09 AM EDT

------------------------------------------------------------

no one's original

Hey, everybody has a role model. Our fool bush uses John Wayne. Cheney uses Jack the Ripper. Condi uses Margo Hemingway. I use Kathryn Hepburn. Donald Rumsfeld uses my late uncle Marvin (boy am I glad Marvin didn't have an army!) Osama happens to use Jesus, what's the big deal?

by anna shane on Fri Sep 15th, 2006 at 05:09:46 PM EDT

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